Doug talks with HOK’s Mike Goetz about design that feels, leadership that cares, and why TikTok counts as “cultural research.” They explore how creativity, curiosity, and care shape great work — and why slowing down might be the key to loving what you do.
Welcome to The Love What You Do podcast. I'm your host, Doug Shapiro. These are the conversations that open doors to what's possible when you love what you do.
All right, I'm gonna fire up the, uh, the warmup questions. Uh, I feel like I should have got a cheat sheet in advance, but. Worst hairstyle you've ever had? Oh God, this is gonna take the whole time. Um, so I went to Catholic school growing up and they wouldn't allow us, would not allow us to have our hair spiked.
So I did like the full. Like, I don't even know what you call that, like part down the middle. Um, and then we, that was back in the days of like sun in, so I was looking like a little orange walking around. It was not cute. Um, and then there was a lot of bleached tips, spiked hair in high school. Nice, nice.
Yeah, it was, it was a look. Definitely luck. Um, all right. What movie have you seen Way too many times. Oh, bring it on. Nice. Alright. Best movie ever. Good stuff. Um, line could quote the whole thing. All right. Career theme song. Uh, love is a Battlefield. Pat was Pat Beitar. Beitar. Oh, I don't know. I don't know that one.
I mean, I know the song. Okay. I don't know who sings it. That's good. That was the first one that came to my mind. Why is that? I dunno. You have to love what you do. Oh, that's a great segue. Yeah. Mike, welcome to the Love What You Do podcast. Uh, I'm with Mike Goetz, design director, principal at HOK. Um, you know how there's people that you meet sometimes and they just kind of worm, hold their way into your memory?
Yeah. Like you just don't forget them. You're one of those people for me. Thank you. So, I know it's been some time, but you had this sort of playful energy. And, um, also this sort of like, get shit done, kind of mental, we can bleep that right. I've been told. And so, uh, for those reasons, I, I thought you'd be an awesome guest.
Awesome. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So I asked you to think of some questions that would help us sort of think bigger about design, and I love what you started with. Um. How can design, or how does good design feel? Mm-hmm. And I thought that was an interesting, uh, way of putting it. So why did you ask that question?
Yeah. I think there's, there's a big difference between how good design looks and how good design feels like. To me, like a lot of things can look good, but that's, it's like one dimensional, right? It's like you walk in, you look at it from a different angle, it's like, oh, it, it, it's lost. Its like meaning. So for me, good design feels, it's got like layers.
It's got intention. You may not know the whole story, but you can tell there's something behind all the decisions. It's not like a collection of like Pinterest moments pinned up on a real space. Um, I think good design it. It's not louder, it's deeper. Um, and so I think it takes like intentional thought behind every move to really make something feel good, not just look good.
So, I mean, what is a, a good example of, of that? Like do you feel like at some point you understood that or was that innate, I guess this difference between It takes time, it takes, it definitely takes time. I think it. You have to, it's trial and error, right? Like I feel like even looking back at my early designs, it was like a collection of like all the cool things I could find and put 'em in one space.
But it just, after a while, it just feels like it was a collection of things. Right Now it's like making, oh God, how many times am I gonna say liking in this thing? Um, it's about. You know, collecting moments and studying different things and trying different things and just building upon it versus just like throwing everything in a mix at once and making it, it just feel inauthentic.
I thought that the word moments was interesting. Okay. You gotta have moments. Everything's about a moment. Um, especially like corporate design, it's a big space. You don't want it to. Just be one moment. One note. You want to be able to walk around and discover. Little moments have, you know, your workday isn't one moment.
You have different components of a workday. So different spaces I think should reflect. What that moment is like if I need to, you know, read a contract, I don't wanna be in the cafe to read that. I need to be holed up in a dark little corner reading through all this words. Um, so that's a different moment.
It requires a different setting. It requires a different vibe, whereas, you know. Want a new project, wanna celebrate with your team, you're out in the open, you're not gonna be doing that. Well hopefully you're not doing that in the little dark corner. Um, so I think there's a lot of creating those moments throughout the space so you get people moving throughout.
I think it's important, you know, you used the word note, you said there's different moments, there's different notes. And I was like, Ooh. It's almost like, like a good day at work is a little bit like a song. You know, like, I mean, it wouldn't be a song if it was just the same note. Yeah. Over and over and over again.
I mean, you don't want the song to be All by myself, by Celine Dion. You want it to be something celebratory. Right. Absolutely they can. I was even thinking like, no, now there's all these songs where like, it feels like there's like four songs in one. Like if you listen to the new Drake stuff, it's like, wait, is that the same song?
Yeah. Or is this a different song? All the sampling. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sampling. Good word. Um, could have different vibes. Yeah. I could see how like, you know, you're, you're composing when you're designing, right? And you're, you're building a song basically. Mozart. Mozart, that's the name. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kidding.
Guy. That one guy, um, awesome. Probably not a classical music person, but Yeah. Uh, okay. Well let's, let's, let's drift away from design a little bit. Uh, there's other questions you, you brought to the surface. Uh, I know in your career you've elevated into different roles of leadership and you had to do some learning along the way.
Lots of learning. Yeah. Still learning you, I think, I think you said something like. You know, I wish, I wish people would tell you this, whatever this is when you, when you become a leader, but no one tells you until you get there. Yeah. It's, it's interesting. And, um, yeah, like it's funny when you're. No one tells you when your dreams come true, how much work it is, like you think, like you do all this work to get to that point.
And like, I mean, this isn't a complaint, but it's like that's when the real work actually starts. Um, and for me, like design comes easy, comes natural leadership is a completely different animal. Uh, it's, it's less about like calling the shots, I think, and more about like carrying the weight. It's a lot of, it's a lot of emotional work, a lot of invisible work.
Hmm. Because you're dealing with space deals with people, but when you're leading, you're dealing with people in a completely different capacity. So I find that you have to change your. Kinda like when you're dealing with clients, right? You kinda have to change your personality, your persona, in a way to relate to them.
And that's already a challenge. So now you have to do that, plus doing it for everybody that depends on you to lead them. Um, so it's, it's, I mean, it's good work, right? It's rewarding when it works. It's just a lot. It's a lot of work. It's a lot. It's a lot of work. But I mean, the idea of leading creative work I think is actually unique.
You know, I think there's concepts around leading creative work that are probably different and maybe don't apply or don't apply to the same degree as leading other kinds of work. Yeah, because it's. I mean, design is subjective, right? I'm not leading a team that's solving math problems, right? Where it's a right and a wrong answer.
It's, it's subjective. Like what I could deem as classic design or clean design could be completely different to somebody else. I mean, there's definitely like wrongs that can be made for sure. Um, but it's like, how do you. Elevate their design style, their ideas, but not take away from their design ideas and their, um, goals.
Right. So it's, yeah, it's a delicate thing to balance for sure. And I know you're also in a situation where you're, you're leading leaders. So True. Let's, let's go there. Like is there something that you look for? Someone that would be a good leader? Like how would someone develop themselves to be in that situation?
Um, I think drive is a big thing. Like you can teach people skills, you can, but you can't teach people to care. And this is definitely an industry where. You have to care, right? Like, we're not out here. Like every movie makes us seem like in our mansions with, you know, the famous architect or whatnot. It's, we're a service provider at the end of the day, like we're at service to a client.
We have to deliver for that client. And there is a lot of hard work that goes into it that if you don't, your, if you don't care, your design reflects that and you can, that's not something you can fake. You can't fake. Being authentic when it comes to like, showing up for a client, doing good work for them.
'cause it shows, at least I think. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you have to love what you do. Yeah. It's how many do we get like a, into like a drinking game? Oh, I love it. Um, all right, so like in this, uh, in the creative world, not just as a leader, but. In doing creative work yourself. Um, you mentioned something to me about creative snack breaks and I was like, okay, this is interesting.
Like where are you going with this? Don't judge me, but it's TikTok for me. Oh, nice. Why would I judge you? That's great. I get, I allow myself one hour a day. I call it cultural research. Um, but that al algorithm is amazing. Like if you get it to be like that little creative moment you see like. Like woodworking videos, artists, even like the, the cheesy home renovation, I feel like it's not like you're trying to like replicate what they're doing, but it's just like, watch a video of somebody doing like woodwork, joinery.
It's just, it's fascinating. Right. So it's just like a quick little palette cleanse. I like that. Yeah. I think this idea of cultural research is legit and i'll, I mean, if you think about, um, pop culture mm-hmm. Understanding what someone wants to do in their free time. Mm-hmm. That's probably maybe the most important window into values and society that we have.
Well, especially now when you have very limited free time. Right. Yeah. It's like now you're on all the time. I, I, you're always accessible to clients, like there's the boundaries and have blurred For sure. I, I feel like we don't, we don't have to be guilty. We don't have to feel guilty when we do this cultural research, because I think that's what's happening.
Right. I mean, even you started off with don't judge me. Yeah. Right. But like this is important stuff too. Yeah. Fair. All right. I'm gonna get two hours now. Thanks Doug. So, so is, is that part of your leadership criteria? Listen, I want everybody on TikTok. No. One hour a day. No. Um, definitely not, but I think, 'cause that's works for me.
I feel like that's the one thing about creativity, right? It's some people, it's like going outside. Some people it's traveling. I think another kind of snack break is doing. Um, creative projects that are completely different from what you're doing in a day to day, especially since I've, um, moved more into like a leadership role.
My day-to-day is less about like production, like, and I miss that. Like I want like doing a set of drawings and walking away and like I did all these elevations today. I did the space plan. Like there's a tangible result of that that I can see that day. And when you move into more of a management role, it's more left, left hemisphere, right?
It's like more analytical, more that kind of stuff. And there really isn't a. Physical end result. So I think finding moments to like do little creative exercises, little creative activities, I think helps fulfill that, as you said, get shit done kind of thing. Like I've, I actually made something right with my time today.
Yep. Um, so I feel like that's like another kind of reset kind of moment. Sure, sure. Um, this, this has been good, good, good little tidbits of advice. Uh, good feel, good moments. Um, let's, let's share a story. Um, I know there's a story behind your why UHHUH and being a designer. Um, let I, I'd love to get into that.
Yeah, I feel like I got lucky. Um, I know a lot of people spend a lot of their life trying to find like what their career was and I feel like I got lucky 'cause I knew from very early what I wanted to do, so. My whole design story started my great, my grandfather, um, used to be the fire chief in town, and then when he retired, he became a contractor.
And so I would, I spent a lot of time with him sitting on his little drafting stool. We got like the blue. Oh shit. Sorry. We got the blueprints right? Like, and I would just always sit there and be fascinated with him in his, like little level, drawing all these homes. And then when I was like six or seven, I started spending my summers with him actually doing construction work.
I mean, I don't know what a kid at six can do. I think I picked up nails for a full summer once. Um, but I would just spend my entire summers on job sites. So job sites with him, um, getting paid on a blueberry muffin and a sandwich. It was, it was a great salary. Um, but yeah, 6:00 AM I get picked up and I think my mom would pick me up at like noon or something like that, but that's kind of how it started.
And then from there, like when I got older, I'd work in a shop and build furniture. And then from there it's, you know, the typical architect story, Legos, Lincoln Logs. Um, I would build furniture. I'd rearrange the furniture in my room a lot, a couple times I'd get a little crazy and do the whole house. And, uh.
After that I had moved to computer programs 'cause it was a little less disruptive to my family. Um, but yeah, I got lucky. And then from there I went to, uh, school for design, got licensed architect and here I am. That, that is quite linear. Yeah. I got, I have lucky 'cause there wasn't a lot of like. I wanna be a doctor for a day.
I was a, a kinesiology major for a weekend. Um, 'cause when I went to school I thought like, oh, I'm gonna learn how to design my house, and that's gonna be like it. And then it's like you're sitting there doing shadow drawings for eight hours a day in a studio. And I'm like, I can't do this. So Friday I went in to the career.
The career counselor, I guess, and switched majors to, um, to be a kinesiology major. And then Monday morning I was the first in line to switch back, like, what the hell am I doing? That's hilarious. Yeah. Uh, gosh. Thank God you did. I wonder if you ever think about like, if you didn't do that, that'd be the worst.
So I, I wanna go back to, to your grandfather. This isn't, yeah. This is just interesting 'cause I'm imagining you as this little 6-year-old on a job site, little demon child. Yeah. Yes. A neon. Yep. Do you have, do you have any good, like what's your best memory of that? So, um, this is a while ago, so I feel give you like perspective, but there wasn't like much child labor laws, I would say in my small town.
So my mom would come like, and pick, go to pick me up. And there was this one time we were working in this like condo building. And I was like hanging on the roof with like a rope and my grandfather's like on the other side like holding me and I'm like sitting there fixing a slate tile or something like that.
I don't think my heard my mom scream so loud because it was easier for me to be like dangling on the side of a building. 'cause I weighed like, what, 20 pounds at that time? Right. Versus like this big six five guy. Um, so yeah, that's like one thing that comes to mind. It's hilarious. So no fear of heights.
Uh, maybe now when you're little, it doesn't count, right? You're, I guess not. I'm fine. Guess? Yeah. Grandpa says at school, right? Oh, yeah. He's a firefighter. He knows what he is doing. Oh my God, my mother was livid. Livid. That's a, that's a great story. Yeah. Um, I, I, I love how straightforward things have been for you.
I don't think it's typical to have that sort of clarity. Um, oh, definitely not. Yeah, definitely not. But like what, so like. Let's just say, let's just say you did not go back to the counselor on Monday, Uhhuh, um, you were a kinesiologist. Um, would you still love what you do? Like, is it, let me ask you this.
Let, if I was, if like a physical therapist, I would hate it, right? Well, where I was going is do you, is it you or is it the job when it comes to loving what you do? I feel like it's a combination. I like my background's in architecture, all of my education's in architecture. But for me as like, I don't wanna work on one project for seven years.
I want seven projects in one year. And working in interiors kind of allows for that creative A, d, d 'cause it's like project, project, project, project. Um, and so. It allows you to like explore different things like by the time you finish a project, like there's a whole new world of product out there, new finishes, new carpets, new lighting, new everything.
And so it allows you to be different and I definitely like looking back on my work, there's there. Evolution and you can see how, like where I was at this time and also where we were like design wise, culturally, like the, the days of like concrete, everything, neon colors to like everything's wood and oak and all like, you can kind of see that evolution and your work.
So it feels like while it was a linear path getting here, I feel like design is so not linear. Yeah. Yeah. I, I actually, I, I think you hit on something really interesting in our industry. It's just this infusion of, you know, new materials Yeah. And new products and new solutions and ideas because, you know, across you, you have a, a whole industry of, of people all.
Yeah. Right. Um, you know, I think sometimes maybe we don't celebrate that part of our industry as much. I can tell you have an affinity for products like you're Yeah. And you built furniture. They make the space as a kid. Yeah. You know, um, it's really cool. So, I mean, is there a part of you that's like, oh, I, I would love to design furniture.
Oh yeah, I think so. It's a, it's a difficult process though. Back in the day we had, uh, like a spinoff company that was product design and like you have to like do all the testing and then you have the focus groups and it's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. It's not like, oh, let me just like whip up something and it gets into the production line.
There's a lot of respect and time and energy that these people put into crafting. Something as simple as like a table like this. It's like you, it goes unnoticed. And then that's what's kind of frustrating is when sometimes clients are like, oh, I can go on this side and get a table for X dollars. And I'm like, but the table's gonna be like, it's was made for X dollars.
Right. There's, there's no story behind it that the quality is shit. There's gotta bleep that one out. Beep. It's gonna be one long beep. Um, but like. But the, these kind of pieces are what make the space, that's all part of that like, uh, the feeling of it, right? It's what adds the dimension. It adds the story.
Yeah. I, I agree. It's important. It, it kind of connects people into space, you know, the, the, all, all the products inside of it. Yeah, for sure. Um, all right. Let's, let's do the, let's, let's talk about a dream project. You could do anything. What is that? Retire. No kidding. No, I think it's funny 'cause when I interview people this is like one of the questions, um, I always ask.
'cause I feel like you could learn a lot about somebody from like their dream project. Hmm. Mine would be for Nike. I would do like a full. I would love to do like a full campus from like the workplace to like the training facilities, um, and being, it's a dream no limits, right? So I would even like wanna be able to design like a line of clothing and shoes that are part of it.
Oh, okay. So it's like a full immersive like experience. Well, tell me about your shirt. I mean, you see a little create a snack break. Um, I actually made it, it was a lot more vibrant before I washed it a million times. Um. But yeah, so I like to do a fun little creative projects. Yeah. And you know it's still white.
Oh yeah. Like you haven't I have a bib when I eat. You have a bib. Yeah. Um, that's really cool. Yeah. Why, like, is there something about Nike that you just personally love? Like what's the thing there? I don't know. Like, it's funny, my brother and I could not be any more different, but the one thing we have in common is like our shoe obsession.
And it, I think it started with the shoes. Like they're just so colorful, vibrant, and it just always drew my eye. So like, I can't, you know, design spaces that are always like this. So I feel like it's like a part of, like my brand, my identity is like a fun pair of high tops. And I, I can't do dress shoes, so I love it.
You know, I had, um. I interviewed a guy from New Balance at one point, and he was saying that you, he's like, I, I don't ever want to hear people say, oh, I can't pull that off. Okay. He's like, anybody can pull anything off, could pull anything off. It's just how you feel when you're Yeah. You know? Um, and I, I was like, oh, that's really, that's really good.
Like if I really wanna wear something, I can just do it. Because if you're trying to. To wear something that you think somebody else, like if you're going to a client, right, and it's a law firm and you're all very buttoned up and whatever, you're gonna, you're not gonna feel you're like yourself, so you're not gonna be able to show up, right?
Hmm. So, sure. Well, I also get like a, a pass, right? 'cause I live in LA so I feel like our version of like formal is a lot different than a New York, or this is true Chicago, but it's about sh. They wanna hire you for you, and if you're not being you, then you're not gonna ever be able to show up for them correctly.
I mean is I feel like that is a journey that so many people are on for sure. Is not only the journey of discovering yourself like who you are. Deep, deep. How do you look when you're, you're most comfortable, right? Yeah. Literally like what? What do you put on your body? Yeah. Yeah. That makes you feel like, Hey, this is representing who I wanna be, but I also, it's just being comfortable in that.
Yeah. That's the big journey. Yeah. And I don't know if I've always been comfortable or if you went on a journey yourself. Oh no, it definitely evolved. I would say like when I first started I had, you know, the little, sorry, the like long pointy shoes, the ill fitting dress, businessman attire was not me at all.
The minute I'd come home, I would change. I'd like put on my, like my house uniform. Your house uniform. I love it. Like I grew up having to wear a uniform for school. I think I was just always in that habit of like, you gotta fit this mold. And it's just, it wasn't who I am. It's not who I am. I wanna, I have a little bit more personality I think, than that, who that person was.
And I feel like the way you present yourself, the way you dress, is also a reflection of your brand. Totally. Totally. Ooh, yeah. They agree. Wait. So I, um, I have a question about just architects and designers in general wear a lot of black. I wonder, is there, it's boring. No. I don't know. Is it, is, is it, so, is it, is there something about that profession where there's comfort in that?
I, I mean, I can't speak for that. I, I did have a boss at one time say that she always wore black because she got up at 4:00 AM and you didn't have to worry about matching things at 4:00 AM when everything was the same color. Um, I, I, yeah, I, I, I, there's logic in that. Yeah. I, I'll accept that answer. Yeah. I, I mean, I.
I also think it's, I could see the argument that they don't want to detract from their work where mm-hmm. I'm the kind of person that I will dress to match my work. I will reinforce it. Like grad school, every project I'd present my outfit matched the whole color palette. Yeah. Yeah. I'm selling, yeah. I'm selling work.
Right. You gotta, you gotta buy it. Love it. I love it. Um. Let's do this Uhoh, finish this sentence. When you love what you do, you do what you love. I know. Um, when you love what you do, you enjoy it. Okay. You care. Yeah, you do. I agree. Um, I think caring is a big part of it and caring about like your outcomes, right?
Yeah. Um, you want the best outcomes. For your client, for the people that work for you. Yeah, for sure. Uh, for your colleagues. Um, I think care is something that evolves also as you kind of move on in your career is like sometimes, you know, you start off caring about kind of like where you're at and things.
Mm-hmm. And then you start to care about the quality of your work and you care about your relationships. And over time I think you start to care about like. Legacy, like, what are you? Mm-hmm. What are you building? Like when you look back, what, what have you done? You know, that's not something you think about necessarily early on.
Mm-hmm. But, um, I kind of feel like I'm moving towards that. And I don't know if, I mean, we're close to the same age. I don't know if, if you're at there in your head yet, in terms of legacy. Are you trying to push me out already? No, I'm trying to push you out. How much time do we have for you, Mike? You know, um, yeah, I think.
I mean, it's always nice to, to go back to a space that you've designed and it's still. Standing and the people still enjoy it after time. I think it, again, it ties back to the thing in the beginning about having dimension, right? Like if your work has shows care, I feel like it lasts a lot longer. If it's a reflection of who the people are that are there, you leave room for them to grow in it and grow with it.
Um, it shows that you care. Uh. I don't know if I'm quite ready for a legacy conversation, but, um, I mean, at the end of the day, people are spending a lot of money to build out these spaces and you want it, you want them to feel like it's a reflection of them. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if there's a space that stands out to you where you look back and you're like, man, I haven't been that proud ever, in terms of an outcome or something.
You know, like there's this, there's this saying, um, that, you know, in golf, like. All it takes is one good shot to keep you coming back. Mm-hmm. And keep playing. And so, um, I know designers tend to be critical of their own work. It's hard for them never to walk around a space and not pick it apart. Yeah. Um, but still there's that, you know, sometimes there's that one thing that's like, that was so good.
That keeps me, that keeps me engaged. It keeps me excited about my work. Is there one thing for you? Hmm. I think looking back. There's two projects that come to mind. Um, and it's interesting 'cause at the time, these are two projects that I did not wanna do. And I, I was like, this is back at the height of like, tech space and like all the cool projects were tech, and these were complete opposite.
One was for, um, Caltech, it was a, a renovation to their math building and the other one was for the Pritzker group. Um, it was a venture capital private capital firm. And I was like, no, I'm the tech designer. Look at me, I'm cool, da da da da. I don't, I can't do. Like, I'm not a education designer. I'm not this, and I, you know, at the time, my design director and boss sat me down, ands like, you're gonna do these.
Just put your spin on it. And to those, to this day, those are the two projects I'm most proud of. Like the ones I did not want anything to do with. Um, 'cause I didn't think that's who I was, but they really pushed me to try something new and make it my own. Um, and don't get me wrong, looking back, there's things I would change and evolve, but, you know, that's the, the burden of a designer, right?
Um. But I think these are, to this day, two of my most successful projects still, like Pritzker got the cover of Interior Design magazine and Caltech got a seven page or seven page spread in there or something like that. Wow. And I think it's 'cause I went in determined to make something that was not me, me, but also I went in not knowing what I was doing.
Huh. Like, you know, I had never done an education building before, but it's, so I had to sit and learn how to do it. I had to talk to the professors, some of the smartest people in the world. I'm like, why are you talking to me? But, um, never trying to do math in front of a math professor, I'll tell you that.
Um, but it was just a whole learning process and I fully committed to it. And. I feel like it showed, it was like a, definitely an evolution of me as a designer by trying something a I didn't wanna do and you know, just giving it my all. That's really interesting. I mean, I'm already,
oh, it's the ticker.
It'll be good for the bloopers. Uh, water break. Um, yeah, quick water break. I have a question. I have a question about that. Um, oh man. I didn't realize how many times I said like, no, you're fine. That would count. Have somebody in the class count every time you say like, or, um, and then after your presentation, they'd hand you the piece of paper.
Oh gosh. Talk about trauma. That's funny. Clearly it didn't work very well. 'cause I'm over here setting a, like all the time. But it, I it feels natural. Yeah. You know, it's like a comma, right? Yeah, it's like a comma. You know, I, I would, oh, see, I say, you know, a lot. Um, but I, I didn't pick up on it. Thanks. But I'll start keeping track if you would like that paper.
No, thank you. Gosh, I, I don't even remember where we were. I had a question for you. Um, I distracted you.
Let's, I think, I think you closed nicely there. Okay. So that's fine. Uh, is there a question that you were hoping I would ask you or that I haven't asked? I, gosh, no, you did your homework. Well then what would you, I mean, what would you wanna leave behind? You know, what? What is it that's a message? Like if you could pass something on in the vein of love, what you do, like, what would you like to pass on?
I feel like it's gonna sound cheesy, but I would say don't race to the finish line. Enjoy the journey. 'cause when you get to the finish line, it's that right, like I looking back. I was so determined to, to get this role of being the design director like that. I like joked to the previous design director Clay.
I am sure you know him. I was like, I'm gonna one day wheel you out of the office, right? Like it's gonna be my turn. And my whole focus was set on that, but now I have it and it's like, what's next? So I wish I would've taken more time to have a little bit more. Of the journey of doing projects without, you know, the other responsibilities associated with it.
Not that I'm not happy and grateful for having those responsibilities. Um, I feel very lucky, but I feel like it's a different set of pressure, not necessarily just design focused. This, this is really interesting. I mean, I, I think you're, you're reaching something in me that. I'm coming to understand, which is like you, you know, you have personal goals.
Mm-hmm. And I have a, um, a friend of mine, Rex Miller, you may know Rex, he's kind of a thought leader in the industry. Mm-hmm. He talks about how your purpose or your goal is to become the best version of yourself. Mm-hmm. And that's a goal that's kind of never ending. Yeah. Right. But as soon as it is, it's full-time job.
It's a full-time job. That's a good answer. You know, as soon as it's something though like. As soon as it's, um, a title. Mm-hmm. Or like, if you're a track runner, maybe it's a time, right. Or if you're a business, if you set a, you know, like we just need to get to, you know, whatever that number is, half a billion or whatever.
Yeah. Like what happens when you get there? You're like, what's next? It's exactly. You lose the, you lose like the moment of joy that comes with it. Right? Because you're always like, okay, what's next? Right? Like my life's, there's some country song. It's like, you never. I'm definitely not gonna sing it, but it's like you don't ever enjoy the moment.
Right? 'cause you're always, you get to the moment you're like, okay, what's next? I know. I know. That's what therapy's for. You've done well today, Mike. You've been my therapy. Oh God. I'm sorry. You don't need real therapy after that then you were, you were awesome. Seriously, thank you. Thanks for joining me.
Thanks for having me. Yeah, it was fun.