IA Managing Director, Valerie Jardon, weighs in on personal growth and the future of work. She shares her inspiring journey from a difficult upbringing and early self-doubt to leadership and shaping workplace strategy. The conversation explores everything from humanoid robots and techno-optimism to impostor syndrome, future selves, and the assumptions we make about work, identity, and change. Valerie also reflects on the emotional impact of receiving a major leadership honor, the role her family played in her success, and her belief that the spaces and systems we create ultimately echo back to us. The conversation is thoughtful, funny and deeply human.
Welcome to the Love What You Do podcast. I'm your host, Doug Shapiro. These are the conversations that open doors to what's possible when you love what you do. We're hot. Sweet. Hot and going. We're going. Uh, Valerie Jardin, managing director at IA, workplace enthusiast, workplace strategy expert. Passion. Yes. We'll get into some of that, but, you know, I ask everybody to send me questions, and, you know, sometimes they're surface level or... You just went for it. You gave me some great questions. Yay. I'm excited to get into with you. Um, I wanna start with the, the easy, fun stuff. Okay. Before I do that, there was a little... Maybe it's a coincidence, I don't know, funny thing I ran into. I, I had Joanna Jablonksi on this morning. Yeah. And I'm looking at your profile, I'm looking at her profile, and I'm like, "Wait a minute, they went to the College of DuPage- We sure did at the same time- Mm-hmm ... which is kinda wild. We did, yeah. So. We graduated together. Yeah, like, oh, 2005, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Small world. So, small world, yeah. I love Joanna. I saw her at Leader's Breakfast. It was lovely to see her. I haven't seen her in a while. I n- I just met her in that moment, so it was really fun. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. It is a small world. Um, okay. Fun little warm-up questions. Okay. What do we got? If you could borrow a famous person's swagger for a day- Hmm ... who would that be? Well, I mean, you say famous person and swagger in the same sentence, and the only person I can think of is Johnny Depp. ' Cause he's got a lot of swagger in terms of how he moves. Boy has some swagger. The tattoos, the jewelry. I think it would be him. I just think he would... Yeah. Would you be comfortable in that, in that swaggy moment? I think so. That's fun. He owns it so well. Yeah. And it's just so, it's so uniquely him that I think that's, I think that summarizes me, too, and so, like, I, I wanna be uniquely me, so. I love it. Cool. I'd go for Johnny. Um, how about this one? If you could be a walk-on cameo on a TV show- Walk-on cameo ... what would it be? Hmm. Walk-on cameo for a TV show. Um, well, you know, funny story. I actually was a background e- person on a movie. Of course you were. I'm like, did you actually answer the question in the- I actually, I actually have an IMBD page. Are you serious? Swear to God. Oh my gosh. This is crazy. But, um, yeah, I was an e- I was an extra in the movie, um, Girl on the Third Floor. Okay. For a client of mine, MPI Media, and it was a horror movie that was filmed in a house that we did drawings for so that they could renovate it- Oh, wow ... and flip it. And we designed their corporate office, and they were like, "Hey, you wanna be an extra in this movie?" I was like, "Sure." No way. Husband and I went down. We were in the bar scene. It was great. Did you have a line, like, or did you- No. No? No, no, no speaking role. We were just- Okay ... in the background pretending to talk. They were like, "Can you pretend like you like each other?" I was like, "I think we can figure that out." I would hope you could do that with your husband. I was told, now I don't know if this is true, like when models sit across from each other and then the, the stage director or the photographer asks the models to talk, that they just say peas and carrots over and over again. Actually, you don't speak. Really? It's so, it's, it's completely silent. It's all gesturing. And, um, then they, they trigger the person or people to come in and, like, they say their lines, and then, and then they, like, yell cut, and they do, like, all of these crazy, like, tests to make sure that the quiet is still there. It's wild. Oh, man. The- but it's totally silent. You're just like... Talking to us. That's so- It's the craziest thing ever. It's totally random. Oh, wild. Okay, I just wanna ask another question because you know what? You kinda wormed your way out of that one. I did. Um, if there was a childhood game or toy or board game that could become an Olympic sport- Oh, gosh what would be your best chance of medaling? And don't say Blocks. Everybody answers Blocks. No, I ac- Okay. Thank you ... I, no, I was thinking of all the board games we played as kids. I hated Sorry! more than anything in the whole wide world, and Trouble. Like, my sister always beat me in that game. Um, I feel like the, the game Mouse Trap, though. Oh, that's such a good game. Yeah. And I feel like it's very, you know, strategic. You gotta set up the traps and hope that they all work when you want them to. Yeah, that's a good one. Good answer. I'd go with that one. All right. Well, let's, uh, let's get into your questions because they're good. Um, I'm just gonna go for it. Okay. Valerie, what's making you happy these days? I love this question. This is, like, my go-to question whenever I'm talking to people. Uh, what is making me happy these days? It's just so many things. I honestly am... Compared to last year, which let me tell you was terrible, this year has been phenomenal. Wow. Um, personally, professionally, everything. Um- Just so many things. My daughter just graduated. She got her, um, she was pinned last weekend as a nurse. Oh, nice. So yay, we have a nurse. Um, my other one's, like, busy exploring Milwaukee and finding her footing. Uh, you know, we're finally, like, hitting our stride just, like, as people, right? Like, every- everybody in the house is an adult now. It's kinda cool. Yeah. Um, my mom beat cancer- Hey ... this year, so that was a huge win. Yeah. Happy, happy moment. Um, and then professionally, we, like, blew up our strategy practice at the end of last year, started something completely new this year. Um, somehow I convinced Aida, trust me to, to lead it all, which has been amazing and terrifying all at the same time. Congratulations. But I've been really excited with the progress we've made and the team that we've built and, um, just loving all of it right now. So c- I mean, I wanna springboard off this. Yeah. So you just presented me a whole bouquet of happy. All kinds of things. Right? Yeah. All kinds of happy. What changes when you're that happy? What changes? I, well, I think it's the drive and the passion. Don't get me wrong, I still wake up every morning with a, "Ugh, gotta get up." You know? Like, there's, there's not a morning... I plus I'm a night person. Are you getting up to your alarm- ... or are you just waking up? No, I'm getting up to my alarm. All right. I am not a morning person. Okay. I would much rather be up at 2:00 AM than waking up at 6:00 AM. But yeah, I don't know. Uh, what changes? It's just, it's your passion. It's y- like, your, how you show up. It's, um, you know, you're excited to be there even when it's hard and you're in the trenches with something, whether it's a hard client or a, you know, a, a fight that you have w- or whatever, you know, whatever it is. Yeah. You, you just, you find more meaning and more interest in working harder, making up things, you know? You're like, "I'm gonna do this." Yeah. You have more faith in yourself. I feel like I've beat imposter syndrome a little bit, too. Hey, that's huge. Which is huge. It still comes, but I, I, I can now say, "No, no. Look at all of the stuff that I've done. Stop, stop it." Yeah. "You be quiet." You know, I had a, I had a, um, conversation with somebody this morning, with a friend of mine, and, uh, she was telling me about how, um, after a Zoom call that she was on, a f- you know, a colleague that was much older c- corrected her. You know, didn't correct her, but made some constructive criticism, you know? Sure. And she said, "You know, I just felt like a little kid in that moment." And I was like, "You know what? I feel like a little kid all the time." You know? I, I- Seriously ... always f- you know, you're, I feel like you never stop battling this, you know, these feelings of, like, I really don't belong here. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. For sure. In fact, I, I had a I had hi- hired, uh, Sally Augustine to be on our team for the first half of the year to help get a bunch of stuff set up and going, and, you know, she's a, she's a doctor. She's, you know, has a PhD. And so for a while there, I would laugh. I was like, "Well, she's the PhD and I'm the WebMD." I have enough data to be dangerous. That's funny. But I'm not actually a PhD. Yeah. So yeah. You know, you always find something to compare yourself to, but- Totally ... at the end of the day, we are all just trying to do the best that we can, so you gotta give- Yeah ... yourself some grace. I actually think that's the key thing, is, you know, the impostor syndrome doesn't come from a place of i- insecurity. Mm-hmm. Or it doesn't have to. It can come from a place of, like, it just means you care. Right. It just means you're trying to do the best and you're self-conscious of that, and that's not a bad thing. Somebody just said to me recently, too, that it's a, your inner critic is a way of keeping you safe. Hmm. And that you have to embrace your inner child to really, you know, shake yourself free from that and, you know, remind yourself that it's okay to explore and take risks. Yeah. And I thought that was really powerful. It is. All right. Let's, um... You said it's been a heck of a year, a great year. It's been a good year. So what have you maybe heard or experienced in this year that's changed the way you think? There was a good, there was a good one. So I went to this really great conference this year. Never heard of it before. Sounded great. There was this, a s- person that I follow a lot of his publications and things, and he was gonna be speaking, and I thought, "Yeah, you know what? I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go and check it out." And it ended up being, like, a conference of consultants, okay? So there was just a lot of really great people that do similar overlapping Venn diagrams, but nobody necessarily 100% in anybody's bucket, and a lot of just really good stories and lessons. And there was a keynote speaker that was talking about how to reflect... Uh, the, his story was specifically around loss. And, um, I don't think there was a dry eye in the room, quite honestly. Um, but he was, he was talking about loss, and he was telling a story about a friend. Um, and I, and, and I, and I do pull this out and think it applies to basically, like, everything, you know, in terms of change. Um, but he had said the friend was, was at the mother's bedside, and she was... The mom was passing away of cancer, and she was just very distraught, as to be expected, and was, like, crying. Like, "I can't imagine what my life is gonna be like without my mom." And it was a family friend that came in and said, "You're right. You will have no idea what life will be like without your mom, because that version of you hasn't been born yet." And I, I just- Wow ... it still gives me chills, but I was like, "Whoa, yeah. What..." Like, think about that. Yeah. That version of you hasn't been born yet, and it's not until that version of you comes into existence that you find your strength, you find your- Mm ability to move on, you find and adjust to your new normal, and it's everything in life. It's not even just losing a loved one. That's any major change that you have. Yeah. I said, "Wow." It's kinda weird to think that there are versions of ourselves out there- Right ... that are going to come, and we just don't even know it yet, and we have no idea what that person's gonna be like. And look back. Yeah. Like, how many versions of yourself do you see if you think about it and you look back? Oh, totally. It's crazy. Totally. I mean, there's ones that you're proud of, and there's ones that you're like, "What?" Yeah. We're not gonna talk about those. That's really funny. Um, wow. Yeah. I mean, that's a g- that's an interesting exercise even to just say- Yeah all right, well, how many lie ahead, and how many, you know... How much control over that version of yourself do you have? Like, this is- Right, and how different are you from one to the next? What were the drivers or the catalysts behind changing you? You know, 'cause it's gotta be something pretty significant that makes- Yeah you a new version. Yeah. Kinda like Taylor Swift. She has all these eras, right? Right. You know? Right. And it's like- I know, I'm like, "Am I-" ... we're just living out one big Taylor Swift- Am I Valerie 6.0 at this point? Like, I don't know. I don't know where I'm at. I'd have to count them all. You're, you're, you're in your awesome era right now. It feels good this year. Yes. Good era for you. Um, that's really funny. Uh, let's, let's do this. Let's, let's get into your team a little bit. Yeah. I know you're passionate about building a great team. Um, what's your, what's your dream, what's your dream team look like? Like, who's on that team? Oh, I want every mind imaginable. The diverse perspectives, all the different types of, um, just ways of thinking. You know, we talk about diversity all the time, and, um, I was reading this really great book about diversity and how people will, um, hire based on visual diversity. But in reality, they end up hiring all of the same thinkers. Hmm. And I was like, "Wow." That was another one where I was like, "Oof, yeah, th- that's, that's wild to think about." Um, and so I've tried really hard to find not just people who are trained in design or architecture, but might have, like, a UX/UI background or, um, ethnographic observations or, you know, anthropology, um, IO psychology, neuroscience. Like, if I could have a really solid person, data analytics, but then- I want a stellar d- data visualization- Yeah ... person. Yeah. Data visualization person. Um, bec- because that's, you know, you g- you need the graphic element. There's so many things, right? There is. So I would want, I want all the different minds. You know, it's kind of funny. I, I reflect on the team that I'm a part of, my, uh, the team I'm very close with, and, you know, there's of course the different minds, but there's also, like, there's these different energies they have- Mm-hmm ... where I have, like, the big-time risk taker, and I have the big-time, you know, like, safety checker. Yeah. And the analy- analytics person, you know, and the life of the party person, you know. It's like there's all these different... And the, and the one that has, like, this crazy sense of empathy, you know, that can just- Mm-hmm ... um, relate to anyone. It's, it's- Yeah ... kinda interesting, like, when you start to dig into, you know, how those differences come together. Do you... I mean, are you actively recruiting with that in mind? Like, do you- Mm-hmm ... are you, do you have in your mind, like, "Here's holes I'm trying to fill"? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's pretty cool. Regionally. So the, the fun thing about what happened this year was we became us- our own P&L. Uh, so we're a standalone studio now within IA, and we're not a geographic location. So normally it would be, you know, Chicago studio versus a San Francisco studio, whatever. Yep. Um, because we are more of an ambiguous group, we can hire where there's talent. And so I'm thinking already of, like, what regions do I wanna hire in, um, what studio, 'cause we have to market internally just as much as externally because we work, you know, our, our, our studios essentially bring us to projects as well. So it's, you know, what studios support us? Where do we wanna be to align them, to support them best? But then also the talent. Um, but yes, I have a, I, I did a, I spent all of last year doing a business plan and, um, I've stuck to it pretty well, but- Wow ... it was all very clearly laid out. I mean, it's great to have a plan and stick to it. That's hard, actually. It is. It is. It's harder than it seems. And I've pivoted, don't get me wrong. There's been some pivots there. But it's, it, you have to have a big picture in order to, to figure out where you're going. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Um, I wanna, I wanna ask some more of the questions you gave me, but I kinda wanna stray into, while we're, we're- You do you ... while we're in your studio and we're in your, your kinda workplace mind- Yeah ... um, I wanna get into the future of work. Mm. Because, um, a person that's as positive as you, I think that's the, that's the future I wanna hear about, you know? There's a lot of doom and gloom around work and workplace surrounded- By, and the meaning of place- Mm-hmm ... in work today be- because of obviously the, um, the hybrid world that we're in, but then also, uh, the AI evolution and what it means for our workplace of the future. Like how steeped are you in, in kind of like playing out scenarios of what's ahead? We're steeped. Deep, deeply steeped. We're deeply steeped. I, I want, I want some of what's in your brain. Okay. Well, let's see. You had... You just asked me a lot of things. I know. I know. Um- 'Cause it, it is all... It's like a big- I know. It's swirling ... swirling storm. It really is. I can say. So we just, we just... I can't say whom, but we just finished wrapping up a... Or I guess we're on... We're literally wrapping it up right now. Uh, we've been working on it since August, so few months in now, and it was... We were hired from a, for futurist perspective on future of work based on AI. They are a global company. They are, you know, one of those $9.2 billion industries. Right. They're, they're not small. Um, they have a million square feet, uh, in a, in a campus in one location. You know, they're, they're huge, and they basically were like, "We need to figure out what does the future of work look like because it's like we wanna pave the path." Rarely do we get that. Rarely clients are like, "What is everybody else doing?" Ugh. "And then we'll decide if we wanna do the same or maybe stray a little bit." Yeah. Yeah. Sprinkle a little extra on something. But most of the time people wanna play it safe. These guys actually said, "Can we, can we explore?" Um, and we went in with this whole process of, you know, the, we're gonna talk about the VUCA world, right? Yep. The, the volatile, uncertain, blah, blah, blah, and we're gonna talk about like what, what do they assume will never change in the future of work? Uh, the team found a bunch of things to debunk all of the things they thought would never change. Mm-hmm. Um, even something as simple as saying people will need to work forever into the future. Yeah. Uh, there are things that could make that null and void at some point, right? So there's all these things that we, we basically threw back at them. We used AI, and we wrote a story essentially that gave them a whole future scenario based on everything we knew about them and all these possible futures and the assumptions that they made, and then we had them react to different things. We started exploring different metrics, um, that would impact real estate specifically, uh, because of the future of AI. So, uh, what is, what is the impact of a humanoid robot? On the work environment. Yeah. Right? What types of spaces would you have to have? There's limitations to data centers and their ability. We know there's a power drain, there's sustainability issue. There's all kinds of issues that come with AI. So we had conversations around, um, resilience and redundancy, and if something goes down, how do you get it back up and do you need to zone, zone your office so that there's different things happening, uh, so that you have safety nets based- Yeah inside of there and there's some duplication of stuff rather than like a traditional, you know, server room and it supports large areas. Um, we had conversations about AI, um, force reduction and what AI could potentially do for their growth over the course of five years. We didn't go past five years for them. We stayed within the five-year realm. But we were looking at things like that, of, you know, what, what areas and jobs are most impacted, I guess, by AI. Yep. And it's not the entire workforce, right? So we did-- We ran different scenarios looking at maybe 20% of the workforce space versus 30% of the workforce. Um, I think there's a lot of techno-optimism with AI too, in the sense where people are saying it's gonna be probably 20 years before it replaces 50% of what we do. So from that perspective, it was like, all right, let's start to scale that back so maybe you're only really reducing your staff by, you know, X percent over so many years. So we, we- Yep ... ran a bunch of different scenarios and showed them what their growth would look like based on the AI impacts on the workforce. Um, and ultimately it was all to get to a s- total square footage of what they would need in the next five years. I, I wanna dig into assumptions. Before I do that though, I kinda wanna stray into humanoids. Yeah. Humanoids. Because you mentioned humanoids. I know. It's wild. I was doing a little research of my own. Mm-hmm. And I was seeing the timelines of five to eight years. Mm-hmm. Within five to eight years, there will be mainstream humanoids, meaning I might have an interaction with a humanoid at a restaurant or a store or- Yeah ... hotel. Absolutely. Five to eight years is like nothing. So- No, it really isn't in the grand scheme of things. I kinda wonder, like, are we going... 'Cause it, human, we, like I feel like we just got to human-centered design. Like I mean, I know we've been doing that for a while, but it doesn't feel like we were really authentically digging in at a science level and understanding like we have been over the past 10 years, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, but now, like, are we gonna do a humanoid-centered design? Mean-meaning like are there products and doorways and, you know, like s-spatial elements we need to consider? There are, depending on the type of robot you put into place. We see... So, uh, one of our studios does a lot of work. Um, they've kinda become a little expert bubble in humanoid manufacturing. Wow. So it's super cool to, to do work with that studio 'cause we get to learn a lot about that. And, uh, if you're talking about humanoids walking, looking like a human, um, they don't necessarily need different paths of travel within space. Um, their support systems are gonna be a smaller footprint. They are s- they technically would be smart enough to know that they can go charge themselves and take care, you know, plug themselves in when they need to. Um, in fact, we've had conversations with the manufacturers where they're saying they're gonna walk off the assembly line and box themselves at some point. They're not there yet, but they're like, "At some point-" That's good. "... that could happen." It's wild. Wild. And that's changed the conversation for manufacturing. It's been- Sure ... as a total tangent, because that's been really fascinating to see how there's so much more emphasis and meaning on the, the employees that work in manufacturing because the intellectual property is so protected right now that they don't want turnover, and so they're, they're investing more into their employees. Yeah. It's total interesting sidebar that I'm seeing as a outcome of all of it. But when it... The other flip side of robots is that you have the non-human looking ones, and those are like the little, you know, like you see the Coco bots and stuff run, running around. Right. And if you have something like that employed in your workplace, and s- I've seen organizations that do have those, um, then you have to create a completely pa- separate path of travel because it's, they're just zooming. They're moving all around, and they're doing all kinds of things. And so there's, there's a square footage impact to that. But it's, it is really interesting. It is. I, I wonder, like, if a non-human looking robot would assimilate better into an office world. I'm not saying manufacture, but into an office world than an actual humanoid, one that looks like a human. Like w- I've had conversations with Dr. Augustine about this 'cause I'm like, "Hmm. What's the psychology behind this?" Will people disrespect the other? Well, she actually- Like, will the other one be invited to lunch meetings? Or like, you know? I don't think anybody is ready to sit next to a humanoid and be like- Let's invite Bob. Come on ... "Hey." Yeah. What do you call it? No, like, let's name it. I- in fact, one of the manufacturers, they were talking about their adoption center, and I was like... I said, "I hope... I, like, are you, do you have plans for, like, retail environments for these things? 'Cause you know people are gonna be trusting them." Yeah. But, um, no, from a, from a, a psychology perspective, my understanding is that we do trust things that look like us- Mm ... more than we trust things that don't. But I think there's a, there's a learning curve there. Now, convenience is always going to be the bane of our existence, and that's what we, like, search for to make our lives easier. And so once we realize that they're going to be convenient for us- Mm ... we'll probably adopt them without a whole lot of pushback. Um, but I do... In the workplace, I see them starting as more of an operational service oriented perspective. Sure. It's not gonna be we're crunching numbers next to each other and doing design, you know, with one another. It's- Yeah ... I think they're gonna be more service oriented for a while. Okay. It's gonna be Rosie, right? Wild. From The Jetsons. It is. Yeah. Like, if they were... Don't you wonder if they were making The Jetsons now, like if we were to remake it- Oh, wow ... like what would we put in there? Rosie would probably be hotter. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Oh. I kinda like, I, I kinda wanna go back and rewatch The Jetsons. I, I haven't. Mm-hmm. And then just like figure out like what are those things they got right? Yeah. What are those things that... Yeah. I'm, I'm glad they haven't let dogs talk yet. Yeah, there's that. Though we do have the buns. Um, you, you said something about assumptions and how people make all these assumptions about the future. Mm-hmm. What is a typical assumption that is maybe widely felt that you feel is wrong? Well, there's the things that we take for granted, like we'll always need to work, um, because there are universal basic income concepts and things that are f- have been floated over the years, and some countries do to some extent. So no, you don't necessarily always have to work. I think that's probably the biggest one. Yeah. Um, I think we just take for, we take a lot of things for granted that w- have always been a certain way, and so when we do that, we lose the curiosity of what it could be, and then we just, we're like blindsided when something changes. We're going, "Oh my gosh, um, nobody works now." Yeah. Just to be extreme with it. So there, I mean, there was, there was definitely some others, like, um... Trying to think what else came up on theirs, but that, I, I remember that one off the top of my head. There was f- five other ones that are not coming to me right now. I feel like one of the mistakes that people typically make about the future is they imagine it as an extension of the present. Oh, for sure. And it's like, it's actually like nothing like today. True. Right. And you can like, uh, uh, ideally, I mean, if you are creative enough to think about it, you can make the future whatever you want it to be. Wow. Right? Yeah. Um, but we do get in our own way. I was just reading this really great study, too, about, um, like why is it so hard for us to save for our future, save for retirement? And there's actually, there was, there was data in this, in this s- study that was showing how your brain lights up when you, uh, think about yourself versus when you think about another person, and there's actually- Hmm two different regions of your brain that light up. So- We'll just say this side lights up when I think about me, and this side lights up when I think about you. But when I think about me past 10 years, it's the same side as the stranger that lights up- Wow ... or the other person. And so it's, it's really interesting. I don't, I don't know how that all translates into something, but the just the basic idea of your future self lights up a different part of your brain or lights up the part of your brain that you think of a stranger is really fascinating because it, it takes- That is ... away that connection of this is going to be me, this is going to impact me, I should be doing these things. 'Cause I feel like it goes back to this there's an alternate version of ourselves- Right ... that we don't know. Maybe we already know that. Right. Maybe we do. That's kinda wild. But you'll never be able to imagine that future self. It's, it's crazy. It is crazy. Yeah, I mean, I'm just, you know, as a little exercise trying to do it in my own head and- imagining, like, an old version of me. You know what has helped with that? Hmm. Those Snapchat filters that you can put over your face Oh, no. And see what you're gonna look like when you're 80. And like- I'm going to look a lot like my grandmother. It's terrifying. Oh, yeah. I, I look like my mother's father. Like, when I looked at the... Which I never would say I looked like him, but when I saw that, I was like, "Oh, my gosh- Yeah ... I am Grandpa Marquart." It's crazy. That's Grandma D. Yep. Yeah. I look like Grandma D. It's like, ah, that's wild. Um, okay. Um, all right, let's talk about, uh, you know, being retrospective. We've been very future-focused. Um, you had a little comment earlier about, uh, not in this conversation, in a prior one, about being careful what you wish for. Mm. Yes. And I guess wishing is still a future-focused idea, but you're looking at it from a retrospective point of view. Mm-hmm. I was. Yeah. You know, 'cause I, I used to always say, uh, I think I was probably a teenager growing up, I used to always say, "Gosh, I wish people were forced to walk around with a camera in their pocket so they could be forced to take a moment and enjoy the world around them." And looking back- Whoa ... on that, I'm like, "Oh, I hate that I ever said that out loud." Wait a minute, that's kinda wild. It's crazy. But that was, like, a big thing that I used to think about all the time. Uh- Because the camera would make you feel like, "I need to capture-" Yeah ... something." Right? It, like, you saw beauty then. Like, you saw things that were either positioned in a way that drew your eye in. There was just so many thi- Like, you know, think about why you would wanna take a picture. Hmm. You're capturing something that you, you, really resonates with you, that warms you in some way. Um, or you're just like, "Oh my gosh, some- everyb- somebody else needs to see this- Yeah other than just me." And I thought that was such a beautiful thing. And so I always, I was like, "If I was ever president someday, I would, you know, mandate that people would have to walk around with a camera in their pocket." And now people walk around with their cameras in their, in their pockets, and it's become such a superficial- Yeah fake world that I'm like, "Oh, gosh, I hate that I ever wished for that." Do you wonder, like, what if they charged, like... Not they, 'cause I don't even know who they is, but you know- The men on the mountain ... like 10 cents a photo? Or like if, if there was an app that you could have that was like every photo you take, you donate 10 cents to something. Oh. And then it's like you start seeing the bills every month. You're like, "You know what? I think I'll cut back on those photos." Maybe. I don't know. I'm trying to figure out like, uh, you know, the swear jar approach. Right. You know, like it's- Yeah, no, that makes sense ... it's, it could either be that or, you know, like do you start with 100? I don't know. Be kinda interesting to think about, like, how we would treat photos if we were forced to ration them. Right. Yeah. ' Cause it's ta- it's taken away the... And of course you don't think about these things, but it, like, I never in a million years would have seen that as an outcome of wishing people would have something to s- make them stop and think and appreciate the world around them. Yeah. And that it would become such a- It's kind of funny ... such a dismissed thing now. We're having this conversation in front of a photographer- I know ... who's probably like, "I have a-" He's like, "I, I have a lot to say about this, I'm sure." I agree. I agree. Yeah. It's wi- it's wild. It's crazy how it all comes together. It is, it is crazy. Um- That's why it's like you gotta be careful what you put out into the universe 'cause you never know what's gonna come true. Yeah. So what else are you wishing for? Maybe it's a good business idea that I should be kinda in the loop on. Mm-hmm. No. I don't know. That's funny. Um, all right. La- last question that you had tossed me was around goals. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, I don't know if there's a, uh, a goal that you have for yourself that you're chasing. Um, maybe it's an alternate version of yourself- Yeah ... that's out there. I definitely have an alternate version of myself goal, and that's I, I would love, I would love more than anything to go back to school. Me too. Dear Lord, if I s- I gotta get through the- I know. I- I gotta get the la- I gotta get the l- Same. Exactly. I gotta get the two kids through college and, and I did my MBA a few years ago, but, ah, I would really love to go back to school for, like, an IO psychology or neuroscience or something like... I would love to get my doctorate in something. It's the best place on the planet. It just sounds lovely. I... You know what, though? I'm, I'm, like, tired thinking about it, so that's why I'm like- I think it's the, probably the farthest reality from me right now. But I know I could do it if I finally just pulled the trigger. It's just, it's one of those ones where you're like, "God." I mean, when you're in it- Risk, risk reward ... it, you just can't wait to be over with it. That too, and it's just risk reward at this point. Uh, a- and I, I have to... What I have to learn to do is n- not be the, the one that knows everything all the time. Like, I have to trust that I'm going to hire the people who know all of the things I don't know- Yeah because they'll make me better, and together we'll all be better, rather than me trying to learn every trade- Yeah ... and then hoping that I can do it. You know, it's like I, I don't, I don't need to play every instrument. That's really funny. So, like, our, our CEO, um, was telling me he c- you know, he knew that AI would be an important part of the fabric of work. Yeah. And he's like, he knows he has to find, you know, people that can help, help us down this path. But he was, you know, he himself was like, "I just need to go in and learn enough to call BS," you know? Right. And so, like, that was what he d- he self-taught himself on AI courses and, you know, and tries to stay close to it so that he can- Mm-hmm you know, be in that position. So it's like you just need to know enough to call BS. I agree. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Well, and just, like, how do you do proper research, and how do you siphon through the BS? So absolutely, I agree. So that's why it's like maybe there's a Valerie 7.0 out there that has a PhD, but I don't think I've hit that goal yet. So you said you're on 6.0. I'm just guessing. I have no idea. Okay, 'cause I was like- No? ... do you actually have like- No, I just threw out a number ... like 3D-printed versions of yourself that are sitting on a shelf? Nope. I just threw out a number. I did have somebody tell me once that you change, that your, like, whole inner person, your physiology changes- Hmm every seven years. Wow. And so I tried to go back and, like, think through, like, where was I at every seven years of my life? Um, but that doesn't equate to versions. I have no idea. I definitely went up a belt buckle, I know that. Like, with certainty. Like, I have- Just one? I'm proud of you. That's not bad. It was just one. But, I mean, it was enough to where, like, I have a lot of unusable attire. So, you know. That's when you put it in the box, and that's your future self that you hope you get back to. I, I gave up. I did. I love the, I love the quote of, "I wish I was as fat as I was the first time I thought I was fat." That's- That's my favorite. That's crazy. I'm like, "Yes." That's funny. Um, that's, that's really good. Let's, uh, let's talk stories. Like, do you have a story- Yeah ... in your, in your life that you love telling? A story in my life? Like a s- You know what? I think, I think my origin story is probably the one that I tell the most, um, because people don't think it. Like, I don't know. I- maybe I just carry myself in a certain way, but I, I come from a broken family, you know, divorced parents, got divorced when I was, like, three. Um, parents got remarried. Certainly loving mom. Totally V- like, disappeared dad kind of a thing. Um, but neither of my parents graduated high school. There was... I was the first one to go to college. Wow. And it really wasn't until I was... And I got m- I got married, um, when I was 20. Or, well, I met my husband when I was 20, I got married when I was 21. Okay. Had my daughter when I was 22. Wow. And it was my husband that was like, "You should go to school." Actually, it was a really funny... I, I distinctly re- this was where one version was born, I can tell you for a fact. Um, we were pushing the baby, we're taking, you know, Julia for a walk and, um, I said... I was working for Xerox at the time, and I said, "I, I hate this job." And he said, "So quit." And I said, "But then what?" And he goes, "Well, stay home with the baby." I was like, "But I need to be more th- I need to be more than just Mom. I have to be Valerie at some capacity." And he goes, "So then go to school." And I was like, "But I don't wanna go to school." 'Cause it, that, like, I still, I had no concept of what college was like or what it was supposed- Yeah to be, and I just assumed it was an extension of high school, and I was like, "I hate it. I hate it." And I was like, "No, I'm not going to school." And he goes he goes, "Well, then shut the up." And I was like, "Noted. Okay, I got you." And it was like that, that was all I needed, and it, like, flipped my switch in me, and I- Oh my gosh I went and looked up the community college, and here I am. So it's wild. That's, I think that's just- That is wild ... a wild s- it's just, it's crazy to think about, um, being... You hear so much, like, like, people get brought up into certain things and they're, they're, like, set on this course because of the family that r- has raised them and, you know, they go, go, go to college because they've been surrounded by all of these college people. And it, I, I like knowing that I was, I went against the stream and I broke the family- So- ... like, kind of norm ... when you're talking about this person, which side of your brain is lighting up? The side that associates that person with you or the side that thinks about it like a stranger? Oh no, it's definitely me. It's definitely me, but it's funny 'cause it, it's, um, when I, when I talk to people from my past that know me as Valerie Bilski, and I've been married for 25 years so it's like, 24 years, whatever. Um, so most people don't know me as that anymore. But anybody who did know me as that, they're, like, blown away that, one, I'm still alive- Oh my gosh because I was, I was a, a horrible teenager and did a lot of terrible things. So they're like, "I'm surprised you're still alive, and I'm, I'm surprised that you've done anything with yourself." Wow. So anybody who knew me from back then is like, "Wow." Wild. That is wild. I mean, the steps to where you are now That's, I just, I- I'm having a hard time, like I'm trying to like picture it on paper. Like was it this linear thing? Was there like this huge jump that happened and you were woken up? But it sounds like it was just grinding, you know? It was grinding. You were at school. You, you did the thing. You spent the time, and you took the time. Yeah. That was the thing. Like I needed to have... I think, uh, this is why I think, uh, leaders... So Leaders Breakfast two weeks ago, I was so emotional. Well, congratulations- Thank you ... because you did win the- I did ... I mean, I don't know if you wanna s- you should speak to that 'cause that was a big deal. It was a huge deal. I, I, I in fact, I said to somebody, I was like, "The only thing I could feel, like or imagine feeling in the future that would compare to like the love that I got that day would be if I could come back and see my eulogies happening after I passed away." Oh, yeah. Like I just don't imagine having that much like love in a room ever again. It was just wild. Um, and winning that was so meaningful to me because I know- Yeah ... like the process of how it all works and blah, blah, blah, and it just... Aw, it was so cool. But, um, I didn't think I was gonna get through my speech. I got up- Wow ... there and I started to do the rehearsal, and I just broke down. And I was like, "I don't think I can do this." I was totally crying. And, uh, you know, Cheryl's standing in front of me going, "You need to project. You need to look up. You need to calm down." You know? And I'm just like, "Oh my God." And I, I literally thought I was not gonna be able to get through it, and it was very much so the... 'Cause I started with my thank yous. I wanted, I wanted- Yeah ... to kick off and just get the thank yous out of the way, thank my family, and then I had a whole speech that I wrote reflecting on kind of my path based on my tattoos 'cause I get, I get a tattoo for every decade of my life. Oh, wow. So I told my, told my stories through my tattoos. But, um, I couldn't get past the thank yous in rehearsal 'cause I was just like, "Oh, God." And, and saying thank you to my husband and looking at him in that room of all those people, and my daughters were both there as well, and my mom was there, um, had... Oh, it just, it just broke me 'cause there was- Yeah ... saying thank you i- is like the two most hollow words you could possibly say when you think about all of the stuff that they- Yeah supported me on. Yeah. And that I wouldn't be standing here if it wasn't, or sitting here, if it wasn't for my husband telling me to shut the fuck up. But it still like got me there, you know? Yeah. And like that was the, that was the wake-up call that I needed, and- Yeah. In that moment, those were- ... my kids kept me there maybe he just knew what you needed to hear. Yeah. He just doesn't have a whole lot of sympathy, which is fine too. You know what's interesting, though, is like you got to say these thank yous, but you know, we don't have to- You don't have to win or be h- No ... receive an honor- You're right ... to go through that process. I mean- You're right ... what a cool opportunity you got to do that. But, like, I guess we can just do that anytime we want. We can, and I do. I do, actually. I, I do say thank you to them. I don't say it enough. I, I, I know I need to. Yeah, you, y- yeah. It's, it's a good feeling. Even, even my mom, like, I put my mom through a lot growing up, and she's definitely somebody that I, I regularly try and, like, give back to, you know? I'm like, "I want you to feel special because you are, and you did so much for me." And so that was super fun. At Leaders' Breakfast, they had, um... I, the one thing I knew I wanted to do in my speech, I... And let me tell you, I racked my brain forever, like, what do you even talk about? Who cares about any of this? Yeah. Like, no one in the, no one in the audience cares about what I have to say. And, um, the one thing I knew hands down I was going to do was present my mother with a bumper sticker. Fun. Because- How long did it take you to find the right one? Oh, no, I made one. Oh, okay. I made it custom, uh, 'cause I'm psychotic. Does it say, "I'm sorry"? No. It said... Okay, so basically the story, the story was that growing up, again, there was zero... Literally the only bar I had to hit was to graduate high school. That was it. That was the only bar I had to hit. And in high school she was like, "And if you can get me one of those bumper stickers that said, 'I have an honor roll student,' I'd love it." And I was like, "Seriously?" And I did, I got it for her, and it hung on the fridge 'cause she hates bumper stickers and wouldn't put it on her car, but I was like, "Whatever." That's- " I did it." So I brought that up in my speech, and I presented her with a new bumper sticker that said, "My daughter is an IIDA Leaders' Breakfast honoree." That's awesome. That's really cool. So I loved that. So I didn't care what else I talked about. I'm like, "I just have to make sure I get the bumper sticker done." Yeah, yeah. That's really sweet. It's a good story. It was fun. And it literally just happened. Yeah, fresh. Wow. Fresh. That's pretty cool. No, it was fun. Um- I was grateful. You've been wonderful. Do, I mean, is there, are there any avenues we haven't gone down that... 'Cause I, I mean, look, I know that you, obviously in your position, you mentor a lot of people. Um, you set direction. You imagine the future. We got into a little of all that. Mm-hmm. But is there, is there a nugget of wisdom that maybe would be sort of like your gem that- Mm you want others to have from you? My nugget of wisdom. I don't think it's a nugget, maybe a boulder. But I ha- I, I- A boulder ... I suppose, yeah. No, I ha- I have a g- I- one of my goals this year, or next year, is I wanna, I wanna write a book, um, around the, the harmonic principles and what we've been developing on, on that, and just get it out for people to, to use. And, um, I think it takes the conversation about design and pushes past just human-centered design or sustainable design or, you know, any one of those lanes, that it's- Yeah ... more about resonance and designing in a way that to, to make everybody recognize that what we do will come back to us. It will. It's just an echo that goes out and will bounce back in some capacity, and I want people to be really thoughtful about the decisions they make when they're designing, when they're creating, when they're making futures a reality, um, and really think about what that means for long term. So yeah. That is- That's my... It's a boulder, though. It's not really a nugget. Yeah. You know? You can just flick that one. I mean, the places we make are reflections of ourselves. I mean, I l- Yeah ... I love this, uh, this idea. So- Yeah ... it's a boulder. It's a boulder. Yeah. But I'll keep pushing it. It's fine. I love it. Valerie, thanks for joining me. Yeah. This was a great conversation. Thanks for having me. This was awesome. I could talk to you forever. Thanks for joining me here on Love What You Do.