This episode of Love What You Do goes beneath the surface of a creative career with John Sadlon, Principal and Global Workplace Leader at Perkins&Will. Guided by a personal map of sketches—from the Guggenheim to Brancusi’s Bird in Space—John shares the stories and lessons that have shaped his work and worldview. He reflects on running the Boston Marathon, why you should never cross the “finish line” empty, and how a risk he finally took at 30 changed the course of his life. John also recounts losing his partner in a tragic accident, and how that experience led to 20 years of meditation, a deeper sense of intention, and a daily choice to spend his energy on connection and gratitude. It’s an episode about design—but even more, about the art of living fully.
Welcome to The Love What You Do podcast. I'm your host, Doug Shapiro. These are the conversations that open doors to what's possible when you love what you do.
John warmup questions? Yes. First album you ever bought. Wow.
Um, it's probably gonna be, uh, Peter Gabriel. So nice. Um, that's just what comes to mind first. I do remember my first, uh, concerts. It was amazing. I had three concerts in less than, uh, eight days. I saw the Rolling Stone Steel wheels. I saw U2 Joshua Tree and I saw Pink Floyd, the Wall.
Oh my gosh. Three concerts in the first eight days, and. Blew my mind. That was amazing. Legendary. It was cool.
Wow. Yeah. All right. Uh, so you already, you already heard me ask this question. Favorite, uh, most memorable outfit when you were younger? Oh,
um, well, it's not baggy pajamas, uh, but I had this one outfit.
That I was traveling and I, I bought this jacket that was way outta my budget, but I had to have this jacket and I loved it. And living in a small apartment in New York that had a closet about this wide, um, which also in the back had a heat pipe that ran through the whole building. When I took that jacket out to wear it the next season, the heat from the pipe, it actually destroyed the sleeve of the jacket.
Oh. And I never got a good juice out of it. So that was a major heartbreak moment that I never got to wear. Ugh, it was an investment jacket. Trust me,
I have a funny jacket story that's similar, so I was terrible at losing things when I was a kid. You know, you just get caught up in the moment and I was one of those kids that was just always taken off their jacket.
I was always hot, taken off my jacket. I was leaving it, and I think I had lost like two jackets this year, and my parents were just like, you know. No more jackets for you. Yeah, we're upset. You know, and, and I think in their, like, there was some sort of logic that was like, okay, if he picks out the jacket and it's a really good jacket, then he's gonna care about it.
And so like, I remember going to the mall and picking out this jacket. Yeah. And I loved it. And I think I had it two days. And you lost it? I lost it. Yeah. And I remember, I remember that was probably the most upset or like the most, like he is helpless. Look, that my parents ever had. They tried. They tried.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right, uh, last one here, last warmup, career theme song. I've never thought about that. This, this one has stumped every guest. No one is able to lay down myself,
fly like an eagle.
Oh, that's good. How's that? Is that some seal fly like an eagle?
I'm not sure if it's seal. It just kind of comes.
That's what came to mind. The Eagles. Eagles. I think it's the eagles. Yeah. What am I thinking of? Isn't there like a seal fly like an eagle? Oh, a Lenny Kravitz song would've been a lot better. 'cause that's like hardcore, I'm kind of dating myself with the Eagles, but yeah. Um, I don't know why I thought of it, but that's what came to mind.
Love it. Love it. Yeah. Uh, all right. Good stuff.
Okay.
Well, John, welcome to The Love What You Do podcast. Thank you very much. Great to be here with you, Doug. Thank you. Um, I'm honored to have you here, uh, principal at Perkins and well, yeah. Workplace and real estate, uh, workplace and Real Estate Strategy. Um.
Outta New York City.
Yeah.
You know, I, I asked every guest for a, a list of questions and, uh, you did not send me one. I did not do my homework. No, no. Instead you sent me, uh, uh, kind of a map of pictures, of drawings, sketches that you've done. Uh, it was fascinating. Some of them I could identify. Sure. They, they were straightforward and some were quite abstract.
So, uh, for the people on YouTube. You can see those on the screen. That's gonna be our map today. Yeah. Uh, you can see on my little notebook here, I've tried to recreate a few of these. Great. I wanna see your sketches afterwards. They're terrible. They're terrible. Embarrassing. We're calling these the sad lawn icons.
Which I love. Uh, so, you know, I asked around about you, John, and, and the theme that came up from those who know you is creativity, a great communicator. Um, so I feel like this is sort of the combination of those two things coming together. First, uh, why did you, you know, like, what, how did you think to do that instead of the standard answers?
I would typically get.
Maybe I'll just back up a little bit and it, it relates to the overview of my career. Um, I've always been very much focused on building strong relationships, whether that's with my colleagues or, or with my clients. And I feel that the best relationships are always a two-way street.
And, um, so that's about getting to know each other. It's about finding, hopefully a common set of values or priorities. Or maybe a shared mission. And once you have that commonality, that foundation, you can build something that's incredible from there. And rather than a rapid fire question, what I tried to do with these icons is, um, a.
Represent significant milestones in my life, in my career that have taught me a lesson or that have, um, that represent a growth moment for me. And to share those with no explanation, just a simple graphic representation that I hope you interpret it in your own way and maybe it sparks something in your memory about your past.
And that's where we're starting a relationship. We're starting storytelling in a way that is less a q and a rapid fire and it's more about a bonding. Um, I already feel the bonding, but you know, it's, yeah. Hopefully when we come out of this discussion today, I'm learning as much about you as you may be learning about me.
I, I love the, actually, I love the approach of just slowing down to think of the stories Yeah. Of your career or your life. Yeah. That carry lessons.
Yeah.
Um, I think most people probably don't do that. You go about your life, but you don't really kind of collect and document Yeah. Those stories. So the fact that you've got, uh, a whole map here that we can go through.
That's exciting. I tend to be pretty introspective and I think I probably had 30 icons and I just narrowed it down to the ones that I thought would be best for the conversation. But I do see, um, themes in the evolution of my career and in my life, and things tend to build upon the previous and lead to the next.
Okay. And so that kind of gets us to where we are today.
Okay. So there's a, there's a drawing that looks somewhat like a light bulb.
Yeah.
Okay. Is it a light bulb? It is not a light bulb. Okay. There's these, uh, you know, they almost look like they could be balloons, you know, that are surrounded by a shape of a light bulb.
Yeah. Um, tell me how we got there. I.
My interpretation or what that represents for me is, um, the mentorship and the advocacy within my own career. And so the tallest circle or balloon, uh, represents the mentors that I've had early in my career and. It makes me think about what they've taught me and the skills that they've helped me to hone and how that has impacted my own personal growth.
And so the placement, the verticality of these pieces in part, represents seniority or maybe a different moment in my life. But then for the, um, other, uh, circle or balloon that's. On par or at the same level, it makes me realize that over the course of my career, I'm growing, I'm evolving, and then I'm mentoring the next generation that's coming in behind me.
So it's, it's really about mentorship and advocacy and, um, giving as much back to others as I've been fortunate to receive in my career.
Yeah, I mean, I, I think mentorship is one of those interesting things where, uh, you become one sometimes before you even know it. Yeah. And I, I, do you still have mentors?
Is there somebody that's still mentoring you?
I'm lucky I have, um. A core group of, I'd say, four to five people that I still seek out advice from. Uh, and more often than not, they're tapping me, saying, Hey, what's happening with this? Or how, how can you get further along with it? So it's a two-way street. Um, what I also find is that I've mentored many, many people in the course of my career, uh, that have been working on my teams, and whether they're still working with me today, or whether they've gone on to other careers or maybe even other firms.
They still call me now and say, we had this new opportunity, or we have to renegotiate something. Uh, would you help us to think about how to go about this? And so the fact that I'm even getting those phone calls sometimes 15 or 20 years later after having worked with someone for a period of time, it's the most gratifying thing.
Um, certainly not the objective that you start off with when you begin that kind of relationship, but, um. I think in a similar way when I call my mentors and say, Hey, I've got this challenge, would you please help me to think about it? It's again, a two way street.
Okay. I I like that. It definitely, you know, I wasn't sure where we were gonna go Yeah.
With the, it's not a light bulb, but, well, it could be a light bulb
as well. I mean, it it sparked something in you.
It did,
yeah,
it did. Um, okay, so there's a, there's a building that has these, these planes. That sort of, uh, narrow in size, right? There's like a, I'm not sure what, this is like a little platform that comes out of that.
Let's
go there. So this is the cylindrical building? Yep. So that is, um, a representation of the Guggenheim Museum in New York. And early in my career, I was really fortunate that I, uh, had a chance to work on a project with the Guggenheim, uh, not at the museum proper, but they have an archives and a collections, uh, group, which is, uh, in another location downtown.
And so that was the space that I was working on designing. So all of our meetings were held. At the Guggenheim Museum, and it was, um, in this little conference room on the mezzanine level behind this hidden door that was like a Harry Potter moment that just to go into that building and, you know, find this hidden door.
It, it was pretty exciting. Um, but what I learned from that experience, or, or what I was exposed to was that. The Guggenheim had a two scale model of, um, their buildings and also of every individual piece within the collection. And those pieces were then moved around within the architectural model when they were considering the next exhibition to put together.
And so it taught me a lot about curated experiences.
Hmm.
And thinking about the future and what will be, uh, the progression of people walking into the space. How will they move throughout the space? What are the pieces that will be given pride of place and front and center exposure? What are the pieces that may be flanking or even opposite from, and how does that impact then the human experience of that?
Environment. And so oftentimes I carry that now into the projects that I'm working on with my teams and my clients. That what is the human experience of entering into that building or that space? And, um, what is the flow of circulation? How do I experience it, and how could that experience be different for different people?
I mean, it, I can feel passion inside of you here, uh, around the subject. What is the, the piece of, of your work that you enjoy the most? I mean, is the, is is it that or is there another element to it?
I think for me, um, the most gratifying. Part of my job. Maybe I have two answers to the question. Um, on the internal side, I get to work with brilliant people, uh, within Perkins and Will.
We've got an incredible team of experts, um, that spend a wide range of skill sets, uh, design and technical and project management and, um. Strategy advisors and branded environments. It's just incredible the the wealth of knowledge that we have. So to pull that team together and to have a collaboration where we're all contributing to an outcome that doesn't just meet, but hopefully exceeds the expectations of our clients, that's an incredibly gratifying part of my job.
The second piece is more externally focused with, uh, my client relationships. And for me, the holy grail is repeat business. Um, uh, we were talking before about music. I never wanted to be a one hit wonder. I always, I always wanted to have a, a relationship with a client where they call me six months or a year after our project is done and say, you know, John, you did such a great job.
Please, would you do our project? In London or do our project in Tokyo. And for me, that's, that's really the most gratifying thing is that, um, establishing a solid relationship and seeing it last the test of time.
Yeah, I mean that's validation too. It's validation. Yeah. That's what we all want. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
okay.
Very cool.
Uh, all right. You had a, you had a globe. That one was easy for me.
Okay. Okay. Um, so it's interesting. What does the globe mean to you? What. How do you interpret that?
Um, it's a big world out there, like when I, I. Love Globes. I have one in my office. It's a hold too, like, like there's way less countries on that globe than there are now, especially in Europe.
Yeah. Um, but, uh, so it's an old globe. Um, and, and I've, there's others in the house and it's one of those things I just can't ever see myself like getting rid of. Yeah. Um, because, you know, I've, I've been fascinated with travel, um, just with cultures with understanding that. This place is big. Yeah. And so I don't know if, if that's where you're going or similar.
I have one more question. Yeah. Um, do you remember what age you were or where you got this globe from? Oh, shoot. No. I, I don't. It's just always been around. Okay. It's always been a party of you. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so for me it's, it's similar. Maybe this is where we're finding a commonality, right. Um, that I always aspired from a very early point in my career and in my life to, um, live and work internationally.
And there's a great deal of excitement that comes with, um, visiting a new place, meeting new people. Yeah, learning new customs and within the context of my career. I, I began early days in Boston and I had great experience working with two very large and well established firms in the Boston area where I learned to hone my design and my technical expertise.
But I wasn't quite getting connected with the clients that I was aspiring to work with on an international scale. And so I, um. I made the realization that I needed to come to New York in order to bridge that gap across the pond, so to speak, to get access to international clients. And when I came to New York, I interviewed at all of the large reputable firms and some had an established global practice and others did not.
And I ended up going with one of the latter, but it was really because of, um. The interview that I had with the president of the company, and she asked me what I was looking for in my career and I said, I want to, uh, live and work internationally. And she said, we do not have an international practice, but if you build it, we'll support you.
Wow.
And I took that vote of confidence as, um, more meaningful and more valuable to me than other firms that perhaps had an established practice that I would be plugging into. And so the challenge of. Building a business that aligned with the vision that I had for my future, for my career, but I had no experience doing in the past was, as you can imagine, daunting and, and if I look back now, 20 some odd years later.
That is precisely the career that I have now, and that is the position that I'm working in. Wow. Uh, with, with Perkins of Will, I'm the global practice leader. I'm, uh, providing business strategy and client engagement leadership to our workplace team. Uh, we have Perkins of Will has 32 offices around the world.
We have 2,600 people. It's an incredible responsibility. Uh, as much as it is, uh, an opportunity to have an impact, not just internally, but with the clients that we serve. I mean, you
are
so calculated.
You want something thoughtful. Thoughtful. Yeah. But I mean, you, you, you wanted something. Yeah. You knew the changes you had to make in order to get it.
Yeah. You went, you made the changes. Yeah. You get it. Is it what you thought it would be?
That's very interesting. Uh, that kind of dovetails into one of the other icons, but the answer is no. It's not always what I expected it to be, and I think that when we're standing on one side of a divide and we need to get to where we would like to go or where we would aspire to go, we don't always know by intuition.
What is the best way to get there? And we can't always rely exclusively on the advice of other people to give us the instructions of how to get there because the path is different for each one of us. Yeah. And so the trials and tribulations of bridging that di divide and getting to whatever it is you aspire to achieve, looking back, um, no.
That journey was absolutely not what I expected, but I arrived in a place at this point in my career and I believe I still have. A good stretch to go where I'm really fulfilling the aspiration that I'd set for myself 30 some odd years ago, which is pretty cool. I'm very grateful for that
opportunity.
That's, that's amazing. Yeah. You're, you're lucky. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think it's even special to have an aspiration that lasts that long. Yeah. Because, you know, things change in life. Yeah. And what you want 10 years ago is different than what you want now, and without a doubt. Um, and I'm sure it has evolved, but that's always been something that's.
You've plug onto, I guess, what is that rooted in? I mean, what, what is this deep desire to experience other cultures and to, to experience international career? Where does it come from?
It's something that I can say before I connected it with my career. It's something that I just felt, you know, uh, in my heart of hearts that I just, uh, felt this, um.
Connection to something that I could not articulate, couldn't put my finger on. I couldn't even identify what it was. But it was more about, um, I'm trying to think of the right way to describe it. It was more about a sense of place where I was contributing in a way that was meaningful. Um. Finding over the course of my career and the course of my life, finding what is that place and what is my contribution.
And so you could apply that to your personal life. You could apply it to your family and to your professional life. And I, I think if each of us is able to. Fulfill that aspiration. I mean, that's just like the most incredible thing. And to have that be your job Yeah. Uh, is pretty remarkable. It is
remarkable.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you have an appreciation and you should, I mean, I think that's amazing. Yeah. Um, all right. Let's, uh, let's hop around here. This one I'm gonna have a hard time describing. It's almost like, um, maybe it's a feather. Maybe it's, um, like a, a folded. Cloth that tapers towards the bottom, you know, almost as if I took a napkin and I had like a, a little ring around it and I brought it down towards the bottom.
What is that? I love your description.
That's really beautiful. Thank you. Um, this is my very humble, um, representation of, uh, Constantin Brancusi's sculpture, which is bird flight. I'm sorry, bird space. Uh, are you familiar with Brent czi? I'm not. Okay. He was a Romanian artist, sculptor painter who, um, was very influential in the early 19 hundreds, and he was focused in his career on the essential he was looking to describe.
Or express, um, the most significant aspect of an object or a person or a place that he was painting or sculpting about and looking beyond maybe the surface or maybe the, um, the characteristics that we would identify. Out of habit and trying to find what was really the inner beauty of that piece. And so this particular piece, uh, bird space has no wings.
It's a sculpture of a bird that has no wings.
Hmm.
But if you look at it very closely. The expression of soaring, the expression of, um, excitement or of beauty is in the rise, the crest of the chest, of the bird. And so that is in this drawing, the form that you just see subtly bursting through. I, I see that now.
And so we can all feel that. Like when you say your heart is bursting with pride or bursting with joy, how do you draw this? It's just that leaning into. And Huh? The wings are superfluous at that point, and that sculpture just captivates me and I've. I've seen it, um, a number of times, but the first time I saw it, I was, um, at the time living in Paris and, um, Brent czi had, um, um, a studio where he lived and worked, um, that is located very near the, the poi Do Center.
And the studio was now preserved and it's open to the public and it's this, uh, underground space and from the street, there's just a very blank facade that. It is nondescript. You would walk right past it, but on the roof line there's a sawtooth roof line with all these skylights. And when you descend the stair and go down into this studio space, it is absolutely flooded with daylight.
Hmm.
And there are a series of rooms and each one of the rooms, uh, has a collection of his very large scale sculptures. Uh, there's infinite totem and um, there's just. It's incredible. It's, uh, it left me speechless Burden flight, uh, burden space rather, was, was there in the collection. And, um, I found that everything else within the room for a moment in time for me just disappeared.
And I was drawn into this one piece. It really spoke to me. But what was interesting is as I studied more about Branzi and I learned more about his philosophy of, of his life's work and of creating. Is that he never had one piece or one sculpture that he felt was, um, um, the significant accomplishment or the crown jewel of his career.
Rather, it was the compilation, the assemblage of each of these pieces that represented different moments in his career within his studio. And when you step back and you regard this collection of pieces, some very intimate that you could hold in your hand, others, infinite totem that literally is 20 feet tall, uh, rising up to the heavens, the scale, the materiality.
He worked in bronze and he worked in stone. Uh, there was such a variety in his work, but he considered. The culmination of each of these pieces and that they were in two, they were placed in a way that had relationship within that space that was significant to him. That was the essence of his career. So if people ask me what is my favorite project I've worked on, I really, really struggle to answer the question.
Oh, it's the, because, yeah, from each project or each work that I've completed. I'm learning something new about my client. I'm learning something new, hopefully about myself, and I'm carrying that on to the next project that we do. And so it taught me to think of my career in a very different way, that I'm not trying to chase that dream project or there will be no one client that will be the end all be all.
It's more about the assemblage of the work that I'm creating and the people I'm collaborating with that. Result in something that's much greater.
John, you have great depth. And how, how did you build this? Were you, oh, I mean, 'cause I don't think you're necessarily something that you're just born with, right?
How did you come into depth? In thinking and depth in the way you express yourself and think about your work and your impact, how did you develop that?
Trying to think of the best way to answer that question. That that's a big one. I think, um,
I think from my life's experience. I've been very fortunate with many opportunities that were absolutely spectacular. Going back to the mentorship, I have had people that have guided me through the ups and downs, um, and I've also had hardships in my life that have been pretty abysmal.
Hmm.
And I think that for me, finding a way
to, to bring myself out of those darker moments. Uh, whether that's, um, loss or whether that's, um, feeling stuck, uh, or whether that's just feeling that life is unfair sometimes, that I've realized in my life that. Rather than look externally for someone to pull me outta that moment that I need to stay in it and that I need to get through it more importantly, so that I've learned, um, that rather than get over something or try to get around it or to put it behind you, I've gotten a lot of advice about that in my life when I'm going through a difficult time.
I've learned from. My experience, I need to get through it.
Hmm.
And only by getting through it can you come out on the other side with a sense of resolve or a sense of focus or a sense of purpose that then carries you to the next place of wherever you're going without that issue from the past coming back.
The reality is, if we are focused on getting over something or just getting around it, chances are pretty good. It's gonna pop back up at some point in the future, maybe in a different way, but you're never really gonna deal with that issue.
Hmm. It's, there's like, um, I feel like you're, you're building a muscle, you're building capacity to deal with.
Difficultness, you know, to deal with something tough.
Yeah.
You know, 'cause if it, if it is like a muscle, you run away from it and letting the muscle never gets stronger.
Yeah.
You've built a capacity, you know, to handle now. Yeah. Something that's difficult.
Yeah.
And I think that is, and then the next thing that's difficult, you're not as afraid.
Yeah. You know, and it's interesting, I, I am. I relate it to sports psychology. I, I, that's something I study on the side. It's just a, just a hobby. And, you know, um, I see it in athletes who, you know, through athletics, that's their way of figuring out their capacity to deal with struggle or to deal with pressure.
And then, um. Rather than the old trick of, well, just think about something different. Put yourself on the beach. You know, it's like, no, that doesn't work. Deal Work with the struggle. Yeah. Deal with the struggle. Yeah. And get through it. So it's that, it's, it's by doing that, that you've uncovered depth inside you.
Yeah. Um, I think that's super, that's a really interesting answer. Uh, I, I didn't know how those would connect, but I absolutely see it. Um,
that's, that's, so it actually brings me to a different icon, which I don't know if you were gonna ask me about it, but it's the one that has all of the vertical lines that kind of look like a wedge shape.
Yes. Okay. From right to left. Um, this ties in with your sports reference.
Is it the one that goes, that thins out over time? Correct. Got it. Yeah.
So that's the one. Uh, so this is related to, um, running the Boston Marathon. So I'm, I'm a four-time marathon runner. Hey, congratulations. Thank you. It's amazing.
You're a runner too? Uh, no. Okay. No. Okay.
I speed Walker. Speed. Speed walker. Sure. Okay, cool. I mean, I, yeah, that's good. I ran, I run because my wife makes me, you know, that's it. Sh she runs with you or she wants you outta the house? She runs ahead of me. Okay.
Got it. Okay. Way
faster. Okay. I just watch her take off.
Okay.
Good enough. Yeah.
Um, so what that bar is representing, um, if you look at the bottom line of that diagram, it's basically a satellite view of the starting point in Hopkinton to the finish line, which is at the Boston Public Library. So that's a literal. Interpretation at a very small scale of the course of the run,
huh?
If you look very closely at the top of the line, you see that it, um, it, uh, jaggers up and down. That is the elevational change of the course. And if you notice about two thirds of the way through, there's a little bit of a spike, and that little spike is what's referred lovingly in, in the Boston world as, um, heartbreak Hill.
And so that is at mile 18. And, uh, that is the moment at which, um, your body just gives out. Uh, the hill is very difficult for most athletes to overcome that obstacle. Backing up from the diagram itself for the icons representation, uh, the story behind this is, um, that I. I had never run a mile in my life, to tell you the truth.
Um, never even thought about running a marathon, but I joined a, a running club. Which at the time that I joined did not realize it was a marathon training club. Oh boy. But I joined this running club because I wanted to get outside and just do something that was a more physically engaging. And, um, my first night, literally we broke into three groups.
One did a one mile loop, one did a three mile loop, and one did a five mile loop. I opted for the one mile loop and I almost didn't make it. Um, I was not a trained athlete. I said, this is interesting. This is something I can work toward. And I kind of set my sights. What did that next morning feel like? Uh, I coughed up a lung.
I mean, it was horrible. It was really bad. But within six months I ran my first marathon.
Oh my gosh.
So I, that's incredible. It was incredible. Uh, I trained, uh, very hard for this experience. And the, the, um. The lesson of this was taught to me by our coach who had run multiple marathons, and he said something that was really remarkable, but also a bit, um, mind boggling.
He said that no matter how hard you train, no matter how, how, how well you eat and the sleep that you get, even the most elite athletes of the world, their body cannot store enough energy to go beyond 24 miles. And a marathon is 26.26 miles. The last two miles are a hundred percent mind over body. Wow. And so he said one thing even more profound is that if you cross the finish line at the marathon and you collapse, you haven't won the race because you've depleted yourself of everything that you've got.
And there's nothing left for you.
Hmm.
And the way he trained me to think about facing adversity or facing a challenge or achieving a goal, he said, you've gotta have enough left with inside you to run one more mile after the finish line.
Wow.
Which sounds ridiculous and masochistic and it is. But if we then translate that to our professional life.
And if you are waking up in the morning and you're putting your job above all of the other priorities, you know, you're not eating right, you're not sleeping right, you're not spending the time with your family, and at the end of the day, you get home and you're so tired, you can't even eat dinner and you fall asleep on the couch.
Have you really won the day? And then what if you get up tomorrow and do that again?
Yeah.
You're not winning the race. And you may do these things with. The false impression that you're getting ahead in your career, or maybe you're helping this other person to achieve something. But the reality is you're depleting everything that you've got for yourself.
And so the choices that we make, both personally and professionally have an impact on our own personal wellbeing, on our relationships with the people that we love on our careers. And I've always remembered the lesson from this coach. When you reach the proverbial finish line, you've gotta have something left for yourself to go an extra mile.
I love that.
That's I is How long ago was this? Long time ago. Okay. I was just a kid, so, oh, this coach may never hear that then. I hope he does. Yeah. That's really awesome.
Yeah.
Wow. Um. And you've run how many marathons? Four. Four
marathons?
Four.
Yeah. Uh, Boston, twice. Um, New York, once and Providence, Rhode Island.
Okay. Yeah.
All right. If you could run a marathon anywhere on the planet right now, where would you do it? I
think my marathon days are behind me. Yeah. I can speed walk maybe, but no more running.
No more running. Okay. Alright. Um, that was a really cool story. I got some good stories. A great icon. Yeah. For that also.
Um, I, I want to get into this one because I tried to draw it and I was like, oh, that's not right. It's a, it's a circle. There's a dip at the top of the circle and it comes down and there's a dip at the bottom. Mm-hmm. Almost like if you took two little nibbles out of a cookie and then there's an arrow shooting in that's got like a kind of an outline of an arrow shooting in and one that's kinda shooting out.
Yeah. Um. I, I couldn't put a finger on that.
So that, to me, um, represents, um, the challenges, the stressors that we each experience in our life and in our career. And it relates back to a, a story. Um, from my first job where I was 21 years old, and I remember that my boss at the time turned 34, and I said to him, it must be such an amazing feeling to be 34.
You've made it. And he, he said, what are you talking about, John? And I said, well, at 34, your career is established. Your family is growing. You've got the world. By the tail, I mean, life is great at 34, right? And he said, no, you're, you're really confused. He said the same things that are external stressors when you're 34 still exist when you're 54 and 74.
He said, the only thing that changes over time is the way you let it affect you.
Hmm.
That's all you have control over. You can't control the external stressors. You can control how you let it affect you.
Yeah. And
so in that diagram. Um, the larger arrow at the top to me represents the external stressors of life, and they could impact us in such a way that that stress passes through us and it comes out as aggression or, um.
Uh, any other form of just passing it through and passing it on to the next person. Those two little inlets, the, the bites outta the cookie, as you said. Yeah. That is whatever release valve you have, or you need to somehow dissipate that stress so that whatever comes out on the other side, which in my diagram is a smaller arrow, is not taking that out on another person.
You're somehow diffusing the situation without internalizing all of that stress. Or anxiety or whatever it may be. You can't turn it off. You cannot prevent the stress and anxiety from coming at you, but you can find a way, ideally not to internalize it and also not to take it out on other people.
It's almost like, uh, stress doesn't follow the laws of physics.
Yeah. Like matter cannot be created or destroyed. Oh, stress. Maybe it can,
hopefully you can dissipate it and find other channels to, to let it go. Yeah. But, um, it's, it's very much about, um, it's a relational kind of dialogue. Sure. And, um, finding that we need to get through these challenges in our life.
There's no way around it. Um. But the way you let it affect you, that's what you can change.
That's a, that's a awesome diagram. I mean, a creative way to interpret that message.
Thank you.
Um, all right. There is a, where are we going next? Uh, let's do two, let's do the, um, let's do the castle or the, yeah.
Um, so the castle, um, so that is.
A humble representation of sico, um, in, in France, in Paris. And, um, ever since a very, very young age, I had this affinity, uh, for France. Um, and I dreamt of going there and. I put in my head a number of expectations or criteria that I felt needed to be met before I would go, huh? So, um, I created, in my mind the thought that it had to be the right time, the right person.
I had to have the right amount of money, whatever it was, to go and have this experience that I, I dreamt about. And so, throughout my twenties, I never went on a trip. And finally when it came time to turn 30, I said, I'm shifting my mindset and I'm going. And um, at that time I had my own firm living in Boston.
I had my own practice. And um, I was fortunate that I told my clients, uh, we would have summer hours. And they said, that's great, John. You're taking Fridays off. And I said, no, I'm going to Europe for two months. And I won't have a cell phone or a computer, and I'm taking a European vacation. So I went to Paris for two months.
Wow. Um, didn't know a single person. Um, and long story short, um, on the day that I went to visit Grapher, uh, it was just before Sunset and I'm hiking up this very steep terrain, uh, leading up to, um, this place. And I remember. Looking out, um, from the terrace, and I watched the sunset on Paris, which is just the most remarkable.
I mean, no words can describe how beautiful the scene was. And then the gas lanterns came up and people were bustling about, and it was just absolutely breathtaking. It's like, um, um, in a Hemingway book. Right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And this epiphany that came to me in that moment was, um, oftentimes to take a risk is no risk at all.
Hmm.
And I realized that in my mind, throughout my twenties, I had set all of these obstacles, really, I had expectations on myself of what my life was gonna be or what the right conditions should be in order for me to enjoy this moment. And it actually held me back. And it was only the moment at which I said to myself, pursue it.
Take a risk. It may not turn out the way you expect. And this relates to the conversation we had just a little bit ago, that once you make that step across the divide and you get to that place that you aspire to, was the journey what you expected it to be? Very likely, no, but in my experience, the place at which I arrived was even better than I could have imagined.
So to take a risk is no risk at all. Live your life and achieve what you set out to achieve
after that moment, did you? Were you on a risk high? Did you, did you pick out something else and you said, you know what, I'm gonna do that too.
Um, what
was the
next risk? Well, I should, I should clarify by saying take a calculated risk.
I'm not, I'm not saying, you know, just blindly go out there and, you know, sure. Um, start racing motorcycles. But for me, if I found that I was drawn to something that I'd never done before, or an experience that I thought was gonna somehow. Fulfill me in a different way. The answer is yes. And quite frankly, for the past two years of my life, I've been saying yes to a lot more, um, uh, adventure.
And, um, this isn't one of the icons, but I had an invitation, um, about a year and a half ago to go to Morocco and it was, oh wow. It was for a um, uh, yoga meditation retreat. And I've been doing yoga for about two years. Um, I've been meditating for 20 years, but I've never done a retreat with other people to, to focus on these things.
And so it was amazing to me that I went with a lot of, uh, trepidation. I wasn't sure if I was gonna fit in with the group and what was gonna happen, but I said yes to the experience. I wanna see what this is all about. And, um, we would get up before Sunrise and do, uh. Meditation on the rooftop before sunrise, and then yoga for a period afterwards.
And, um, our yogi one day gave a teaching that really stuck with me and she said that, um, every morning when we wake up, we have a choice that we can make about how we spend our energy. And you can choose to spend your energy. Over here. Um, and for the people listening, without the visual, I'm pointing to the left, uh, you can spend your energy over here, which is on gratitude or connection or beauty or love or forgiveness.
Mm-hmm.
Or you could choose to spend your energy over here on the right, which is. Anger, resentment, retaliation, et cetera. Jealousy. Jealousy. There you go. And she said, almost everything else in your life, whether it's related to your health or your family, or even your job, these are external things that you have very, very, very little control over.
The one thing you can control is how you choose to spend your energy every day. And from that moment on, I have made a conscious choice every day. To the greatest extent possible. There's a few days that I'm off, but I choose to spend my energy in a way that is constructive and intentional, and that gives me a great deal of grounding.
I feel a very grounded person sitting across from me 20 years of meditation. Yeah, I've never met anyone. Well, maybe I have, and I just never got into the conversation. I don't usually talk about it, but you, you drew it out of me, so I wanna know more about it. I'm curious now, you know, like what did 20 years of meditation teach you?
And when I asked where your depth comes from, I actually think piece of it might be there. A, a major piece of it. Is there.
Um, just to
sit, to sit with yourself in your own thoughts.
Yeah.
Is kind of a rare place to be these days, to be honest. It is, it is.
So I'll go there. This isn't really what I thought I was gonna be talking about with you today. And this, uh, has nothing at all to do with my professional pursuit, but I'm the personal front. Um. I was very, very fortunate, um, when I was in my thirties that I met my soulmate. And, um, it was one of those experiences that, um, across a crowded room, um, without speaking to each other, without knowing anything, uh, I knew that this man was the person that I was meant to be with.
We did meet that night and we did talk, and we had a great opportunity to have a relationship for, um, a very deep relationship for a period of time after that, a little bit over a year, and this happened within a month of me coming back from Paris when I learned to take a risk as no risk at all.
Yeah.
And I talked to him that night and it worked out pretty well. The following year, we took another European holiday. We did a month in Italy and then in Greece, and we just had two months together, 24 7. It was amazing. Upon returning from that trip, uh, we went back to my family's place. We did a big reunion.
We've done a big reunion every year for decades, and it was just a great moment in my life. You know, I felt that everything was finally coming together. Um, and in leaving that reunion. Um, my partner was in a car accident and was killed, my gosh. And I was not in the car. And, uh, when I was referring before about going through periods of life that you go through the abyss, that, that for me was the abyss us.
And so I needed.
Thank you.
I, I feel that and I appreciate it, Doug. Um, and it's interesting because this is something that the people in my life that are closest to me, obviously know this story. The, the viewers on this podcast are getting a, a, a big, um, peak inside my life. But to just go back to the question I went through the absolute worst time in my life that I thought, how am I gonna get out of this?
And, um, that was a period in life when I had advice from a lot of very well-intentioned people to get over it or get around it or put it behind you and just get on with your life.
Ugh,
and don't dwell on the pain. And I feel fortunate that I knew very early on that that was not the right solution for me.
And so this is when I began, uh, meditating because I, I felt very, very, very strongly that I needed to stay connected to all of the things that were meaningful and beautiful and inspiring. Uplifting about that relationship. Could I go back and recreate that? Absolutely not. This wasn't about living in denial about what had happened.
Yeah. It was about needing to accept,
oh my
gosh, the reality. Um, it was about needing to go through the family and the other things that needed to be addressed at that time to bring closure, uh, to that experience. But then even more importantly, to find a way, how do I live my life? What's, what's my purpose?
What's my meaning in my life when my soulmate is no longer here? Yeah. And that was now, uh, 22 years ago. Wow.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Um, do you, when you meditate now Yeah. Do you still talk to yourself? Thank you for sharing this. Um, thanks for giving me the space too. Yeah, it's very touching and, um, I, I can't, uh, I can't imagine allowing yourself to cope and to deal and to think through and when everything in your body is just probably wanting to push that away and shutting down, Ugh.
What do you talk to yourself about now?
I had what I thought would be a funny answer, but I'm not gonna give that one. I'm gonna try to stay in the moment. What do I talk to myself about?
You can go there, John.
Well, it's not about what's for dinner, but um,
I really am focused on living. My life and on pursuing a career that's connected with intention, being purposeful, not taking things for granted. Yeah. Working very hard at the things that I believe to be most important. Inspired by Branzi. To find the essential. Yeah. And to work towards that. Don't get distracted by the superficial or something shiny over here.
'cause ultimately that's not connected to where I wanna be. Or where I feel I can contribute, but if I, if I think and speak and act with intention, and I can lead by example for those people to bring it back into a professional context, if I can lead by example for the people that are my colleagues, and if I can provide leadership to my clients in a way that is driven most essentially by intention, then the impact that I can have is.
Limitless.
Yeah. I mean, and that's, that's foundational
to joy. It's very much connected to Joy. Yeah. And a, a great deal of, um, my meditation is appreciating the joy that I feel now. Yeah. But I believe you can only know. The depth of that joy, at least from my experience, by knowing the depth of the loss.
Yeah.
Which you understand.
I understand it. Yeah, I understand
it. Um, John, this has been incredibly touching, uh, incredibly insightful, to be honest. Uh, I, I know we haven't gone through your whole map. But I actually just wanna open it up to, um, to anything. Is there a question that you hope I ask you, or is there something you wanna put out into the world now?
I'll stay, uh, for a moment longer with maybe just one final thought. Um, which. Is related to your question about the meditation. Um, I'm a big fan of Mark Nepo. I don't know if you're familiar with his writings. No, I'm not. Um, so Mark Nepo Hass written a number of books. One of them is, um, the Book of Awakening, and this is a real touchstone for me.
Um, and there's a passage in this book that is focused on, um, attention. Not intention, but attention.
Hmm.
And what he writes about, excuse me. What he writes about is, um, oftentimes we are, um, encouraged or even programmed to seek the attention of others to seek external gratification or accolades. For the way that we live our life or, or what we accomplish in our career.
And he goes on to write that, the real moment of expression, the real moment of, um, of, I'm trying to think of the right word. The movement of explosion where things happen is not when we receive the accolade from some external source. But it's when we connect with what's important to us as individuals.
Hmm. And so to paraphrase, rather than seek the attention from others, the greatest joy in life is when we give attention to that which surrounds us. And when, wow. When it's no longer about the accolade of a promotion or of getting the award for that sporting event, and it's more about seeing that I've had a positive impact on the person that I care about or the person that I'm relating to in this way, that's actually the greatest joy and the greatest sense of meaning that I hope to aspire to.
I love that. That is fantastic way to finish this incredibly deep conversation. Um, and I wish I had more of these to be honest. This was fantastic.
Well, this is, um, great for me as well. I really appreciate you taking the time to have a dialogue and a two-way street about building a relationship and, um, I'm sure we'll continue in another way in the future.