Amanda Schneider, founder of ThinkLab and author of Work for What’s Next, explores how work is changing across generations, industries, and the built environment. Amanda shares how her research on Gen Z, hybrid work, and “boundaryless work” uncovered a larger shift: we are operating in a digital-speed world with analog-era rules. The conversation dives into burnout, middle management pressure, loyalty, communication gaps, and the urgent need to redesign workplace norms before they become barriers to relevance.
Welcome to the Love What You Do podcast. I'm your host, Doug Shapiro. These are the conversations that open doors to what's possible when you love what you do. Wow, it's great to be with you. We've done a few of these, so- We have ... it's, it's, it's always good to sit down with someone that you're just comfortable with, that's a friend, uh, and just watching you just take off has been really awesome. Like, I, I recall the first day we met, I saw you present to the IIDA board. This is like, I don't know, 12 years ago? It was on Copate. Something like that. Uh, that would've been around 2012 probably. 2015. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So almost 15. I mean, it's a long time ago. Time flies. Time flies. Uh, and I just remember thinking like, "Wow," you know, like, "She's so good." Like, "How do I stay in touch with her?" And, uh, and it's just been really easy to find you ever since- ... 'cause you're, you're unavoidable. Well, I don't know if you saw my post the other day that, like, being an entrepreneur is a lot like riding a lion. Um, there's actually... It's a famous quote, but there's actually a, like, a little meme that goes along with it, and one of them shows, like, the entrepreneur riding the lion, and the crowd around them is like, "Whoa, look at him riding that lion," or, "Her riding that lion." And then the second one is, like, what's going on in the entrepreneur's head, and it was like, "Holy..." I don't know if I can say shit, but- ... "Holy shit, how did I get on this lion?" Um, so that feels- ... very accurate for me still to this day. Yes, and you're, you're hanging on, man. You are, you're hanging on. Maybe you are the lion. Who knows? I, I don't know. I don't know. My spirit animal. So- Yeah ... podcaster, founder, president, uh- Mm-hmm ... design nerd. Officially. And now you get to say author. Big dream. Big dream. Now I get to say author, for sure. Work, work for what's next. Mm-hmm. And let me tell you, I, I started to get into, uh, started to get into the little pieces of this, and there's some epiphanies in there that, you know, despite all the articles and conversations around hybrid, feels like we missed some real stuff that you put your arms around and exposed, which is kind of the, I don't know, maybe the consequences or unintended consequences of when you remove the boundaries off work. And I was- Mm ... just kinda like, for the first time I was seeing things or feeling things differently. Mm-hmm. Well, I have to give, like, credit where credit's due. So, um, I've been doing some of the Genius Spark work with our friend Rex Miller, um, who wrote a great book called Genius Spark, and he-- As part of that exercise, he does a, like, a personal statement. I can't remember what he says, but one of the lines in my personal statement is, "Once I see something, I cannot not act," I think was one of the statements, you know? And so I think for me, this started back with my... I did a TEDx talk in 2024, um, that was really around a lot of the research that we were doing on Gen Z, and, um, that really struck a chord. That TEDx talk went to the ted.com stage. Uh, it now has over half a million views and is still climbing by about 10,000 a month right now, um, even, you know, almost, well, a little over a year later, um, from when it went to the ted.com platform. Um, so that to me says it really struck a nerve with someone else. So I think what I hope this book does is helps others, um, basically see things that they cannot unsee and make it- Hmm ... not overwhelming, but really give them ways that they cannot not act, that they can really put it into motion and feel not powerless and overwhelmed, but like it's solvable. Like, this is, this is a solvable problem. Yeah, and I, I have some questions, uh- Okay ... queued up around, you know, just like, what do we do? Uh, how do we take action? Um, before we even get there, I kinda wanna dive a little more into context because it was our industry that got you here, right? It was, it was not just a look at work and work itself. It was work specific to the industry of, of interior design and the built world around us. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think that's been maybe one of the most interesting things about this to me because since that initial meeting of you and I in 2012, you know, I've been studying this industry deeply, and I will say, kicking this off, we thought we were studying an industry, but we ended up uncovering a shift in how work works. So, um, to give your listeners just a little bit of background there, um, we are thinkLab. We are the research division of Interior Design Magazine, if you haven't heard of us, and every year we do something called a hackathon. Um, you've probably heard of hackathons in, you know, tech circles and things like that, but we're trying to bring the same type of let's figure out a big, hairy problem by bringing the right people in the room, um, to the interior design industry and this space. Um, so we've been doing those annually since about 2020 And I will say our 2022 hackathon really uncovered some interesting data as we looked at it across generations. Um, we saw some real patterns and, you know, as a data nerd, if you think about, uh, like a bar chart where it's shorter on one side and gets taller as you go to the right, we love seeing those types of data points because it really suggests they're arrows to our future. And, um, about that same time, I did an amazing episode, um, with a woman named Hannah Grady Williams, who talks about a digital divide where people over 35 tend to operate analog first, while people under 30 tend to operate digital first, just because of kind of when they're raised or how they were raised and all of this. And so what that really resulted in was, um, deciding to do a whole hackathon on these not really generational divides, but trying to solve business problems with a generational lens. So we started with firms. This officially started in 2023, and if you remember what was happening then, this is just post-pandemic. We are a very hugs and handshakes world. Um, we're trying to get back into physical space because that is what we do as an industry, is we design physical space. And so we thought, like, how do we use these arrows to our future, these generational lens, to look at the problems we're trying to solve? We're not trying to solve generational challenges. We are looking at generational differences and these different viewpoints across digital first and analog first to really say, "How might we solve this?" So really it was looking to Gen Z, the most digital first generation in our midst. They actually-- The earliest of them graduated just pre-pandemic, um, probably May of 2019. So at best, assuming their traditional college path, they had less than a year under their belt before, um, you know, the pandemic hit and things really shifted, especially in this industry. Um, so we looked at these challenges through their lens and said, "How might we solve it?" And I think the most interesting things at, is that these ideas from Gen Z don't just benefit Gen Z. It's not an older generation having to give something up so Gen Z can get what they want. It's really these ideas from Gen Z that could benefit all of us and maybe help us see our same problems. Adam Grant calls it a vuja de moment, so it's the opposite of deja vu. Seeing something that you've seen a million times but with fresh eyes. Hmm. And I will say, once you read this book, once you look at all these shifts from our research, you realize it's much bigger than any one industry, and I think that, you know, this is one thing that it does well, is it's-- This book is not positioned to just workplace experts that can affect the whole system. It al-also really speaks to individuals, and again, really tries to put them in a position of power where they can test and try something that hopefully helps them feel that they can make change. Yeah. Yeah, I, I think the vuja de moment came to me, uh, when I started to, to understand the impact that boundaryless work Was having on me and, and my colleagues, and just work in general. It was like, it's the same thing we've always been talking about. And in a way, we actually kind of like, we celebrated it and we, we were excited about it. And then, and then all of a sudden it was like, whoa, we're just, we're just on this endless, uh, treadmill- Yeah ... of work, and this feeling of intense busyness, uh, just- Mm-hmm just keeps ratcheting up. What's the end game here? How do we fix this? And, and then you start to realize what the root cause, uh, of that was. Mm-hmm. And this big shift we went through, and it's like, okay, well, maybe there is an answer. And so that's- Yeah ... that's... I mean, can you, can you maybe explain this, the, the feelings of busyness, you know, what's happening there? Mm-hmm. Well, I wanna start with some stats. You know, as a data nerd, I love to bring stats in here. And, and I think that this is really important to talk about why this moment is different. So the State of the Global Workplace report from Gallup, uh, for 2026 just came out. I don't know if you've seen it. Um, but what the report showed is that global employee engagement dropped to just 20%. Um, and what's significant about that is that is the first back-to-back drop on record, and the lowest level since 2020. Actually, the only time that we've seen a similar drop in employee engagement was during 2020 with all of that, um, you know, change that was happening at that time. So I think what that tells us is, you know, we were excited, right? We can work anytime, anywhere. Uh, but what that translates to sometimes is you can work all the time and everywhere. And so as you talk about kind of this boundaryless work and really struggling to make sure that we're keeping, you know, not only the work sustainable, but our human bodies as individuals sustainable, I think that we have a lot of work to do. So what I like to say is we are operating in a digital speed world, but with analog era rules. Mm-hmm. Um, and that is what's leading to this feeling of exhaustion and burnout, and I think that overwhelmed, swimming in a sea of unsolvable problems feeling that many of us have right now that is leading to this level of burnout. Um, I'll say especially in this industry, you know, risk is up, inflation is up, um, expectations are up, uh, but time is down. Time is one of our most precious commodities. Um, so you add to that all of this layering that's coming from this boundaryless world, um, we are really trying to continue to operate in this digital speed world with these analog rules. Um, and I'll give you just a- So- Go ahead. Well, I was j- I was just gonna ask, like, what's at stake? Like, what, you know, what happens if we don't fix this? Yeah. I mean, I think- What stake, uh, what's at stake? Is it just culture? Because I think that's where people wanna start, is we say- Mm-hmm ... we have to go back to a physical office because we're worried about culture. Um, but it's not just your culture, it's your competitive future. And these really aren't isolated issues. They're kind of symptoms of a signal under strain. And I think there's three things that we have to really look at as risks, and I know, Doug, you're such a warm hug, like this is probably uncomfortable- to sit in the what if we don't figure this out world. But let me give you three negatives, and then I promise we'll spend the rest of the time in positive territory. Um- Okay ... the first one I would say is, is that burnout. You know, look at that engagement that's dropping, and I think especially if you look at the, the most, um, I guess the biggest declines came from managers. Uh- Mm ... managers today are stuck in the middle between, this can be a generational thing because of those different perspectives, uh, policy is being dictated from the top that may or may not be in touch with the diversity of the worker bees today, right? Um, and the voice of all the worker bees trying to say what is not working for them. So managers are in the middle, and that is where we're seeing the biggest drop in engagement. So I think the biggest thing is burnout, and that is a problem as we look at our future and trying to be sustainable. Um, the second one is loyalty. The average tenure for a Gen Z, can you guess what the average tenure for a Gen Z is projected to be? Oh, man. I'm gonna go three years? Two years, three months. Oh, man. Two years, three months. That, that... I mean, I, I feel like you're just barely getting started. No, and it- I mean, that's my impression. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But- And especially for these firms, though, that, you know, a, a project from breaking ground to completion could be three years, maybe more, especially if you think about, like, a healthcare project or something like that. So they're not- Yeah ... even getting to see the implications of their early design decisions put into play. Like, this is really serious for us. So when we look at what's motivating Gen Z, we talk a lot about this in the book, you know, only 6% of them even want to go into leadership positions, and I explain why. I won't go into all of that today. But I think we get mad at Gen Z, and we think, you know, they're just not loyal. You know, they're just job hopping. But if you look at inflation today, all this pressure today, um, you know, we're offering- Antiquated raises, right? Like a 3% raise when inflation is going much, much higher than that. So how do we really make them want to stay? There's lots of solutions for that. So burnout, loyalty, and the third one is really bold, but if we project this forward on the path that we're on and we don't make some kind of change, I would say really around irrelevance, and that is a scary word, especially to people my age and older, right? Because of the pace things are changing. But we are a maturing industry. You can really see it on the design side, the dealer side, the manufacturer side, with a lot of majors buying other majors, major manufacturers, big dealers buying to get into other regions, um, design firms. You know, we run all the interior design giants of design work. So MBA 101, this is a symptom of a maturing industry. Um, so I think as we look at that maturity to decline growth curve, um, we need to be aware of where we are, and again, this is not, uh, like we're doomed. This is we can still make change. You know, industries don't decline overnight. They kind of lose relevance slowly and, and until someone rewrites the rules. So I think that this is a beautiful wake-up call to us where we can still make change to say if we don't ignore the sim- signals, you know, because the market won't. It's gonna correct for us. So I hope that we take this as a warning to say maybe it's time to rewrite some of the norms that we were built on that really fit this digital era that we're in. Uh, I totally agree, and I know you pulled out the middle manager, kind of- Hmm ... you know, isolated them and said, "Hey, they're probably the ones facing the most of this." Why specifically the middle manager? And then, okay, if you are in that position or maybe if you're leading middle manager- managers, like how, how do you, how do you help change that? Mm-hmm. So I think one of the biggest things is those middle, middle managers are those translators from kind of this bottom worker bee layer that is often the younger generations in our midst to the people making policy that tend to think very different, tend to be maybe some of the more experienced generations in our midst. I think we see this especially true within the design industry. You know, um, people around our age, Doug, I think we're about the same age. We're right on the cusp of Millennials and Gen X. You're probably a little younger than me. Yeah? Are you Millennial? ' 80, '81. Uh- ' 81. Okay. I'm '79 I'm 79. Okay. You're a millennial. You're a millennial. Yeah. I'm like the last of the X-ers, right? Uh- Yeah ... it's like a movie. Um, but, you know, if you look at the past downturns that have kind of wiped specific groups of talent out of this industry, you know, people in our age with a good amount of experience under their belt are really in high demand and hard to find today. So they're also the people that are, uh, at the peak of a lot of family pressures, right? Maybe aging parents, maybe, uh, we were talking just before we hit record here about college hunts. Doug and I are both in the middle of college hunts. Um, you know, and just pressures of being parents to teenagers. Um, so it's, it's a lot of pressure on this one demographic. And so- Mm ... what do we, what do we do about it? That explains why, but what do we do about it? And I think it's really having bold and open conversations. Naming, you gotta name the problem to tame the problem. Naming some of the differences that we're seeing rather than beating the drum, um, to try to reinforce old expectations. And trying to rebuild, I would say, the social construct, the social norms that we want to be a part of, that everyone at all levels and all ages want to be a part of. Again, not about what Gen Z wants and catering to them and making someone else give it up, but let's really talk about some of these differences. And, you know, again, we do that in the book. We give you lots of very tangible activities that you can do. We, uh, give you a lot of ideas that you can try. Um, and I would encourage anyone listening to this or anyone who chooses to read the book to really actually test some of those ideas because I think the problem that we're in right now is we've kind of thrown the old playbook out and said it doesn't work, but we haven't agreed on what replaces it. Right. And I don't know that, you know, anybody ever got the m- manual of what good management looked like, of what good employedom looked like. Like, what does it look like to be a good employee? We just kind of learned the dance moves as we went. But today, change is happening so fast, I think we have to be a little bit more intentio- intentional moving into the future. I, I love name it to tame it. Name it to tame it. I think, uh- That's like a Brene Brown. I think Brene Brown said that- Yeah ... so I totally stole that. Oh, is it? I love it. I love it. So, um, okay, let's say someone's inspired in this very moment. Mm-hmm. They go out, they purchase Work for What's Next. Mm-hmm. Uh, but, you know, like me, sometimes they like to bounce around. They're not just gonna go page one to page 300. Uh, what, where should they focus their energy? If they could only read a few chapters of your book Well, the good news is I have a very short attention span, so I wrote it for someone like me, so it would keep your attention span. So the book is structured with a few introductory chapters. I hope that you at least start with the preface, um, and, um, kind of get the grounding of why this book is a little bit different than other generational studies. Um, but then it's written around 10 different shifts. So it basically says shist- shift from this to that, and looks at those arrows to our future to really understand, you know, what we're seeing in the data, what we're overlaying in story from all of our hours working with these Gen Z-ers and business leaders to kind of understand the disconnects and what we might do about it. Um, but those 10 shift chapters are all written around, um, um... You can kind of bounce around. You don't have to read them soup to nuts. You don't have to read them one through 10. You can kind of choose the chapters that are most interesting to you and choose where to go. Um, each one starts with a, like, here's the big idea. So, uh, that helps me kind of organize my thoughts, is to give me the punchline and then explain the punchline. We have a lot of stories. We have a lot of, again, those tangible ideas that you can try, and then we give you bullet points at the end. So if you're like me and you really just don't have time for anything, you could even skip chapter to chapter and read the bullet points and decide if you wanna go back and read the book. Um, so again, designed for the ADD brain, you're welcome. Um- But I think if we're looking at this industry, there's a few chapters that I would say are really vital that I think, um, you know, all 10 are applicable. All 10 are fascinating to me, hopefully fascinating to you as well. Um, but the one I would start with, um, is the first shift, um, that really talks about this concept of phygital. Again, trying to bridge this analog native mindset with a digital-first one. Um, it's really foundational to understanding everything else in the book. We think that it's physical or digital. We're a world that loves zeros and ones. But this phygital concept is really looking at, again, for these digital natives, where everything in their world starts digitally, um, and that actually makes them wanna show up physically because they feel more familiar. It's less overwhelming. So how do we stop looking at this as zeros and ones and really understand how to work with digital to make them want to show up physical and really loop those digital and physical, that phygital experience together? So I would say shift one is a really important one. Um, I'll pick three. Let me see if I can pick three. Uh, the second one I would say is probably shift seven, um, which is around communication Now we've done, um, we have access to over 40 years of data on the interior design giants of design because of all the work that we had done with Interior Design Magazine, our sister company. And for over 40 years, their business challenges have always been the same. Um, which says there's still opportunity, uh, to improve that. And so I think a big piece of this is also bridging the way business leaders speak with the way design leaders speak. Hmm. And the communication chapter really talks about this moment of time that we're in now and how to start to bridge that communication gap so maybe our clients actually hear us and hear what we want them to do. So lots of tips and tricks in there. Um, and then the third one I would direct you to is, uh, shift eight, which is around collaboration. Uh, the number one thing that we hear, and we are still actively in this Gen Z research with our 2026 cohort, is too many meetings. Um, the issue is really a time drought right now. We're feeling all this pressure of all those rising expectations I talked about. And when we talk to our Gen Z cohort, they, they are so time-starved. Um, and so the meetings one really talks about putting this phygital mindset into synchronous and asynchronous work, and maybe looking for a new balance between that that helps people both manage their individual contributor roles and their group tasks and group meetings in a way that's a little bit more sustainable perhaps. And, and I'd love just, you know, in, in your writings how you've got to that conclusion around, you know, the moving to hybrid and then the tendencies to then over-communicate. You know, you don't wanna under-communicate when the, when all of a sudden there's these, the physical separation. And so, so you lean into over-communicating, and then you f- formalize your schedule so intensely. Mm-hmm. Uh, it, it really makes sense how you get there, um, it w- the way you wrote. So I mean, I, uh, I think those are great examples, uh, to dive into. There's, uh, there's a couple questions I have. One writes a book as much to learn as they do to teach. That's a... I don't know where that came from. That's not a Brene Brown, but- That's not Brene Brown I just wonder who it- That's a great quote. I haven't heard that one. Yeah. Someone told it to me at one point, and I can't remember. Um, and if I'm making it up, then I'll just take credit for it. I don't know. Take, take credit. But We'll, we'll cite it as Doug Shapiro. So what did, what was the unexpected lesson that came from writing this book? I would say for me, it's just how loudly this is resonating across- Generations, geographies, and, and industries. You know, I even had a teacher friend read the book as a early reviewer who was like, "Oh my God, please will you write this for educators?" And I'm like, "Well, I have zero expertise there, so, so probably you know, if you wanna read this as is and translate it, wonderful." But I will say what started as an industry really, really quickly expanded. Um, and when that same message starts resonating across articles, across stages, and industries, you know, you realize it's really not niche, not unique to our industry. It's kind of a universal pain point. So I know you know all this, but I guess for your listeners who may not have heard, you know, we started this with a, a... I ghostwrote an article for a Forbes writer, um, and he shared that. And, um, it went viral. It was, uh, over 200,000 views. It was pinned to the front page of Forbes. Uh, that was late 2023. So we followed that up, um, co-wrote an article with Brian Elliott that was in MIT Sloan Management Review. That was the number one article in July of 2024. Um, shortly after that, I also did, um, that TEDx talk that ended up being the first from TEDxFargo to get pulled to the ted.com stage. Again, over half a million- Wow ... views. Um, so I've always wanted to write a book. I had an amazing mentor, uh, who has been telling me, like, "Amanda, maybe it's just not time yet. Maybe it's just not time yet." But when all of this started happening, I was like, "Okay, I think this is my moment." So, um, I naturally reached out to, like, over a dozen literary agents, and Doug, I was declined by 12 out of 12. Um, so- Ugh ... uh, big, big zero there. But, uh, I kept going and actually reached out to Wiley. Wiley is one of the largest publishers, and they're the only ones that take direct pitches. So, uh, you know me. You know that I work at the wee hours of the morning. Yeah. So I sent the pitch at 5:00 AM on a Saturday. By 9:00 AM that same Saturday, I had an interview with Wiley. Um, we booked it within two weeks, and, um, we're still in the pre-stage launch. The book drops May 19th, 2026. Um, but we are trending very, very well with pre-orders. Um, I'm really excited to kind of see where this goes. So I would say now the focus is really scaling all this insight that we've gained and kind of, I think, a personal passion of mine is connecting the language of design because a lot of the things in this book- Hmm this industry has been thinking about for a long time, right? But I wanna connect- Yeah ... the language of design with the language of business so that real change can happen, and so that more people look to this industry as the experts to help solve these universal problems it feels like everyone's feeling right now. Yeah, and I, I... You have to imagine that the world ahead of us is one that is more creative, more design driven, and, uh, I do think we could be an example. Mm-hmm. Uh, but you know, that said, there's a lot of things wrong about our industry. I mean- Yep ... I mean, we can be honest about some of the, uh, tr- traditional things that were celebrated, uh, in the world of architecture and design and- Mm-hmm uh, maybe some of the things we're getting wrong there. I think we don't have to beat a dead horse there, but I think we both kind of know that, that, uh, we have our own work to do. We do. We do, but I think that, you know, that's where real change starts to happen, is when you look at yourself in the mirror. I mean, be honest, if parenting has taught you one thing, it's like, woof, you know, I may say this, they may hear what I'm saying, but they sure are doing what I'm doing for better or for worse, you know? So I think, you know, maybe we learn from this wonderful m- multi-decade e- exercise of parenthood, which is, you know, the real change for your kids, the real change for your industry probably starts when you look within and figure out what you need to change first. So let's say, uh, for somebody in this industry that is, uh, you know, feeling burnt out, wanting to maybe change, completely get out. What do you, what do you say to that person? I think I would start with going back to that this pressure that we're feeling right now is not unique to one industry, and the grass is not always greener. Hmm. So I think the tension that we're all feeling is actually a signal that you care, a signal that you are able to identify what's not working, and I will say that's exactly who this industry, uh, this world needs to help redesign it. So I guess I would challenge you to stay close to what you love about it, and don't be afraid to ask questions or, I guess, push back on the parts that really aren't working anymore and help people have these vuja day moments to see what they can't see themselves because that's where change starts. I actually like the reframe of stress that you walked us into there. Uh, stress as a signal that something matters to you- Mm-hmm ... as a signal that you care. Now, there's a healthy amount of signals that you should be- ... uh, sending yourself. Uh, but you know, just to know that stress in general, uh, it's... y- you know, you're, you're not gonna run away from it if you do care. Mm-hmm. And when you, when you think of it as like, "Oh, this is just my, my body telling me I care"- Mm-hmm ... um, it kinda normalizes it a little bit. It- It doesn't make you feel like something's wrong with me, you know? No. And I will say this is where we start a lot of our research, is we look for pain or friction, or in these words, stress, because where you're feeling that pain, that friction, that stress, there's usually an opportunity, uh, to fix it and make, make something a little bit better. Okay, so here's something that's gonna take us into the future. Yes. Uh, I was thinking about this book, and I'm... All right, Work for What's Next. When does that expire? Like, when-- Like, do, do you have a sense in your mind of, like, you know, you've written a book, it's, it's got a certain length ahead of it, a certain runway. Mm-hmm. I mean, some of these principles are gonna be universal, right? They'll, they'll always, they'll always be important. Then there's others that are just of the moment. Let's say, let's say we fix all the things, all the shifts. Uh, you know, the world goes crazy. They, they read your book. 10 shifts happen. We make the, we make the changes. Uh, then what's next? Like, do you have a part two in your mind of, like, work for what's next in, in 2030? Like, what's, what's that gonna- What, what's gonna be in that book? Like, what are you thinking about? I love it. I love it. Well, let me first all say I love your optimism always, um, because, you know, I, I, I, I love the idea that this c- book could be irrelevant in a matter of a few years. You know, um, if, if we hit that, like, amazing, and that is a huge win. Um, what I do think is gonna happen is, you know, I hope 10 years from now this book feels very obvious, right? Like, a lot of things when they feel... Like, think about, let's go back to, like, smoking in restaurants, right? Like, if you saw someone smoking- Yeah in a restaurant now it would feel, like, crazy. But it wasn't that long ago that it was normal to smoke on airplanes, right? That it was normal to- Yeah ... you know. So my hope, my dream for this world is that a lot of the things we talk about in this book are so normal 10 years from now that we look back on this podcast, that we look back on this book and say, like, "Well, n- no duh. Like, that's, that's pretty obvious." Um, I will say we are already working on kind of a part two. I think this book really pushes analog natives to think digital first. But the part two of that is, um, I think especially in this industry, we can all agree as much as we love digital tools in certain moments they're not the same as being face to face. As much as we can work remotely, we would probably all agree that, you know, for the mental health especially of the youngest generation, it's probably not healthy if we're in a fully distributed work world where everyone is working from their basement 100% of the time. Mm-hmm. And so the study that we're launching right now in 2026 is actually the counterargument to this book that's pushing analog natives to think digital first, and it's really gonna be a study to start to look at physical space. Like, in our too far digital world, what actually is the role of physical space, and how do we start to speak to, again, that business world? Think about the HBR reader, the MIT Sloan Management Review reader, the Forbes reader. How do we start to pe- speak to people, not our own industry, not the workplace experts within these large corporations, within these large hospitals, et cetera, et cetera. How do we start to speak to the people making the decisions about ROI of a space and what to fund about What the role of physical space is in this next era that we're coming into, and how to keep the best parts of humanity face-to-face, breathing the same air, and really, you know, again, sustainable for our physical and mental health for the future. So we're, we're nicknaming it the Trust Survey. I'll get you a link so you can put it- Ooh ... in the show notes. Um, so anyone who- Yeah ... listens to your podcast can still take the survey. Um, but it's trying to pull from this industry what we know about the power of physical space and place to, uh, really try to say to the outside world why that matters, when it matters, and how to get people to show up, because I think that's the other thing, is it doesn't matter. You could have the most beautifully designed space, but if people don't go, no one ever knows it. So how do we really elevate the role of physical space and make sure we understand what the ROI is in this increasingly digital era? I, I kinda have to ask, like- Yeah ... what did you think you were gonna do when you were a kid? Did you, did you think you were gonna go this far down the rabbit hole of, of work and, and of- I mean, like, it's just crazy where life leads you and the, the funny things that you start to obsess over. I'm glad you chose this. It- But- It, it is funny. It is funny, and I don't think anyone... Like, no one wakes up, like, thinking about a office furniture catalog or, you know, how they're gonna sell office furniture when they grow up, or... Yeah, maybe they think about being an interior designer. That's a little sexier. Um- Yeah ... but I actually, I hate the question, like, "Where do you see yourselves in five years?" Um, because I think, who the hell knows, right? Like, and I'll say, you know, my- I agree ... my first podcast with Rex Miller was called Carpe the DM because I don't feel like this has been a plan that I've been executing to strategically, that I had this foresight and I saw where I was going. Quite the contrary. I think I sit in every day and look at what's in my control, where could I go, where is no one else going, where do I see that pain, that friction, that stress that I might be able to fix that's in, in my purview, and that's what I've gone after, like a dog on a bone. Carpe the DM. It hasn't, it hasn't been planned. That's, I guess, the short answer. Well, I love the Rex Miller call-out there because he had the same sort of impact on me, in fact. Mm. So, y- you know, he enlightened me with just... We got, we got into a conversation around purpose, uh, and work and, uh, you know, what you're meant to do and whatnot, you know. And he's like, he, he made it so simple. He was just like, "You know, your purpose is just to become the best version of yourself." Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it was like, that's so easy. Yeah. You know? Like- Is it, though? And it... I Well, I mean, it's, it means... It, it, it just takes away the, you know, am I doing the right... Am I in the right industry? Am I in the right jo- You know, it's like- Mm-hmm if you know what you're good at, just- Try to be the best version of that. Mm-hmm. And, and as long as you're- Do you- The, the point was as long as you're... He's like, "You won't ever become it." Mm-hmm. " But y- your, your purpose is to pursue it." Mm-hmm. And, uh, he's like, "If you're pursuing that, that's it." And that, to me- Yeah just kind of like lifted a little weight off my shoulders of the wondering if, you know, if this is the right path or that path. And it's like, you know what? Uh, no, just focus, focus on what you're great at. Mm-hmm. And just try to b- get better at it. Do you, do you feel like you've found your purpose? Um, I've, I've... Yeah, I, I don't, I don't feel like I'm missing one. How does that sound? Yeah, yeah. That's fair. I'm always open to discovering what's next. Mm-hmm. You know? Uh, uh, but, but it becomes, um, I don't know. Maybe it's a little less, uh, defined. Mm-hmm. Because I, I went through the same genius spark. I wrote my paragraph and, uh, it's like, all right. You know, if I... You know, what, these are the things that make me feel good. You know, these are the things that I think I'm good at, and I, I'm gonna bring those into my work. Mm-hmm. I'm not gonna... You know, no one put those things in my job description. Mm-hmm. You know? So your job description has nothing to do with your purpose, you know? I would agree, and I think that that is where maybe the youngest generation among us especially, um, is, is maybe a, a little bit misled. You know, where I think that there is this Instagrammable iconic, like, I'm gonna find it in this thing, in this job, in this- Yeah ... object, in this car, in this, you know, whatever, and, and I'm just waiting to achieve greatness. And I think, you know, it's interesting. I would encourage anybody to go back through your camera roll. Just- Mm. Just do this. Take a quiet moment. Go back through your camera roll because to me, the camera roll is just a really beautiful look at the moments that you felt joy. The moments that you pull out your camera are those moments that you find joy, and what you'll realize is they're often not taken from a stage. They're often not taken from, you know, some big thing. They're little everyday moments where I see my kids do something ridiculously cute. Um, I have a stupid amount of pictures of my pets, right? Like, because they bring me so much joy. And, and- Yeah ... I think if you really look at your, your purpose in terms of your camera roll, you'll find that it's not always these big achievements. It's not always the Instagrammable moments. It's many, many of the moments in between. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. I think that's a, such a great tip, and, uh, I can just, you know, without even going through it, I know what's on there, you know? Mm-hmm. I know what's on there. Um- And that it, it, I'm glad we went there in this discussion because I, I think this is the stuff people struggle with too. Mm-hmm. Um, not just the, uh, nuts and bolts of work, but just, uh, making sure that you feel fulfilled. You know? And that is crushing pressure especially- Yeah ... you know, again, on the youngest generation in our midst is I, I think, you know, realizing that that is mental load as well and, and relieving yourself of some of that to say, "It's gonna be okay." Yeah, and I, and I feel like, you know, if you're lucky enough to actually know this, if you're lucky enough to, to be conscious of how buckets are filled- Mm ... you know, then, uh, you can bring that into your leadership, too- Mm-hmm ... as, uh, you know, as a manager. I know that you're a very purpose-driven person. The, the way you started your firm actually was based around, uh, purpose. It wasn't based around profit or I have a good business idea. No. It was purpose driven. It's purpose driven, and I will say if you ask me if I found my purpose, you know, that has been the, the red thread in all of it all the way through. So for anyone who hasn't watched my TED Talk, um, who doesn't know the whole story, I would encourage you to watch that. But you know, I, I actually found... Doug, this is interesting. I found a, um, it was a newspaper article, um, where they had all of us as high school seniors, um, which for me was 1997, um, say where we saw ourselves in 10 years. And mine said something about struggling. You know, I knew I wanted to be a mom, and I knew I wanted to work, and I saw myself struggling with that. Like, even in high school- Hmm ... I said this. If you hear my TED Talk, that m- maybe I willed that into truth. It was certainly a challenge for me, and I built this company around working moms and really a new model that didn't feel like a binary choice, either stay in a world that wasn't built for you with the caregiving responsibilities you often have and the household responsibilities you often have outside of the home disproportionate, um, to others, um, or be a stay-at-home mom, which for me wasn't a... Like, I, I love my kids, but I love to work. Um, so when I didn't see that third path, I built one and ended up creating a company where I brought other working mamas that had left the working world for whatever reason along that path with me and ultimately proved success not only for those individuals but really for the business behind it. So you probably see me as researching the future of work and writing books and whatever, but, like, my real purpose again is in the camera rolls with all these women that helped me build it. And you know, interesting to tie that today, Doug, like the two top performing posts that I have done in the past two years, and you know I'm a big LinkdIn-er. Um, I think I'm up to 15,000 followers, a little bit more. Um- Two top performing posts. One was a stat about women leaving the design industry. Mm. So it says 87.5% of the, of interior design students are female. 85% of the industry is female. But when you get to the top echelons of the top firms, only 40% are female. That was the top until this past week, Sunday. I, uh, had another post about two coffees I had with young women in this industry looking to leave for the same reasons. You know, they're just struggling to balance it all. It feels unsustainable. It feels like they're swimming in a sea of unsolvable problems. And that one has almost doubled the interaction of the original one, and it, we're only a week in. Wow. So it tells you that this topic that's so important and near and dear to my heart, um, is still really resonating, you know, not only with our industry, but I would say with our world. Well, I appreciate the spotlight you're putting on this- Mm uh, you know, for all of us. Um, and I, and I appreciate your time. It's always great to chat with you. Uh, I'm excited about the launch of your book. Hopefully this podcast is out there probably around that same date, so it'll be- Awesome ... it'll be great timing. That'll be great. That'll be great. I'm, I always appreciate time with you, and I'm excited we got a little deep in the end here, so that was fun. It was fun. It was fun. Uh, and I look forward to the next talk. All right. Sounds great. Thanks, Doug. Thanks for joining me here on Love What You Do.