Doug Shapiro talks with Scott Delano, Design Principal at StudioGC, about mentorship, creativity, joy, and the responsibility of leadership. Scott shares why design is ultimately an act of optimism, how great teams are built around strengths rather than sameness, and why helping people feel like they belong can unlock their best work. It’s a thoughtful conversation about purpose, perspective, failure, and creating environments where people can grow.
Welcome to The Love What You Do podcast. I'm your host, Doug Shapiro. These are the conversations that open doors to what's possible when you love what you do.
God, I appreciate, I can't do this, Scott. Uh, okay. So you know how we do this, Scott? Yeah. We start off with warmup questions.
Yeah, yeah.
Fun, fun. Little questions here
because we're not warm yet.
Nope. Let's do this one.
Sure.
Um, if you could be a walkon
mm-hmm.
Like a cameo Walkon. Yeah. On a TV show. Sure. What TV show would that be?
Uh, let's see. Now if I get to sort of comment on what's happening around me, I would definitely say it's like Love Island or, um, love is Blind.
Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's
good. I'm so full of advice. It's just, its crazy. Like you're
not making the right choices in your
life right now.
Uh, good call. Good one.
Uh, let's go nostalgia here.
Sure.
Is there a childhood toy that you would want to bring back
that I'd want to bring back? Um, you know, I would say. We had sort of the Lincoln Logs, old school Lincoln logs. Mm-hmm. Um, which don't really have much by way of a presence right now, but I think they were pretty cool because it was more tactile than the Legos.
Yeah.
Right. There was sort of a roughness to it and sort of a heft to it where it felt more like you were doing a thing.
Yeah.
Right. Not to say that, that Legos aren't cool 'cause they're amazing, but they're just, in many cases they wind up being so small and like the actions are small. Uh, so the larger gross motor skill of building with a, like, especially when you're a little kid Right.
You're like, you actually have to make construction noises when you put it down, you're like ba ba. Right. Versus the Legos where it's the satisfying click, but that's, it's not the same.
Yeah. Yeah. Now there is a sensory thing with the Legos that's touched. Yeah. But you do really feel like you're building
Yeah.
With the Lincoln logs.
Yeah. Then you have to get a, a rabbit skin hat and the whole thing so the kids are like building in the right. Really lead into it.
That's a great answer. You're bringing back the Lincoln logs.
Yeah.
Um. You should just buy a big box of those for the office. Yes. To see what people do,
just hand them out.
Yes. Uh, here's a good one here. Um, if you could put a billboard up in your hometown
Yes.
What would you put on it?
You are enough.
Oh, that's good. I swear I didn't give you that question in advance. You just kind of,
yeah, no, I mean, I think that's, that's, truthfully, it's part of the, one of the things that is, is part of a discussion later, but like we spend so much time thinking about how other people are unhappy with, or unaccepting or unwilling to sort of allow us to be who we are and what we want to be and do the things we want to do.
Most people, and, and this is meant as no insult, most people don't care about you, right? Yeah. That you do not even elevate to the point where they care whether or not you're successful, which is a sad statement in and of itself. But if that isn't happening, why are you spending so much time putting yourself down?
You're enough, man, take it. Go with it. Do the thing. I guarantee you it's not gonna happen in the way that you want it to every single time, but if you don't try, you're guaranteed to fail. Yeah. So try so. You're enough.
I love it. Great answer. Um, all right, Scott Diano, design principle at Studio gc.
Yes.
Thank you for being my guest today.
Oh, thank you so much.
You always bring such great energy. In fact, I have a lot of memories in my early career of just sitting with you and, you know, you were mentoring me. You didn't know it, but you were mentoring me. Um, there's a, an expression I heard do, do you know the name Bill Van erp?
He's a Yeah. Long time design librarian for Gensler.
Yep.
For like 40 years
Yeah.
In that role. And I asked him, I was like, you know, what is it about the people who you've seen elevate the ones that you've seen? Sort of, you know, blossom from a 20 something to a 40-year-old leader.
Yeah.
And he said the thing that stood stands out the most about them is their ability to talk about the vagaries of design.
Yeah.
Yeah. I love that quote. And like, when I heard it, it reminds me of sitting with you
Yeah.
And riffing and, you know, I would put products in front of you Yeah. And want to talk about 'em, hear you react to them. And you always brought the vagaries of design. Yeah. Now, now we're gonna do vagaries of all sorts of stuff.
Right. Right, right, right. That could be the, the title of this episode, uh,
vagaries. That's
it. Vagaries. Um, but you do such a great job with your words, and so I'm excited to have you here.
Yeah. Thank you. I think, you know, I think my greatest strength as I look back on my career, I think my greatest strength is the strength of articulation.
Right. I, I'm a good designer. I've worked with great designers and help them move further in their career, but most of it is being able to articulate the things that they're struggling with to give it some form or some shape. So they know how to approach it. Right. And, and I, and I do this in most of the things around me.
I'm adding some sort of some detail around it or some framing around it to help me understand how to best work with it. But I do it with everyone because if we're looking at a problem together, I need you to see what I'm seeing. And if I'm not seeing it right, tell me and we'll work on it together. But if we just assume that you and I are seeing the same thing, we're guaranteed to be wrong.
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
And so that's funny. Just articulating it gives you a much better chance of getting it right. And so in some ways the, and thank you for the comment on mentoring. I, I'm humbled to hear that, that I've had an effect on you.
It's true.
Um, but being able to articulate so that we can have the same conversation and we can have that connection about this challenge, I think is critically important.
And that's something I've has always come relatively easily to me and something I enjoy. Because I can see the fruit of that labor turning into a better solution or a better relationship, or, you know, any of the things that just, it makes it better if we're speaking the same language.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, I I love that you've identified that strength in yourself and that you kind of know that about yourself.
Yeah.
Um, and it's, it's very well articulated. Okay. So you alluded to something just when we got into the billboard, you said, you know, Hey, there's a story there.
Yeah.
Um, let's go there.
Sure.
Like what, um, what were you, what were you chasing there?
So, you know, I think a lot of it is, and this is thinking about creative workplaces, creative pursuits that include architecture and interiors, right?
But that it, it goes beyond that to any sort of creative pursuit. There's a lot of pressure on the creative to always astound and amaze and, and it has this almost expectation that you're bringing magic every time you come to it. Right. Um, and there is some degree where it feels like that. Um, but it's not really fair to assume that you're going to be able to pull a rabbit out of the hat every time there's a hat in the room.
Right? Yeah. I mean, that's a lot to expect.
Yeah.
So, um, you know, I think as we talk about that understanding of where we are and what we bring to it, it's important to understand where you bring value. And where you can apply your meaning and your purpose to elevate that to be something exceptional.
Hmm.
There are things that you're not good at. Chances are good. You're never going to be good at those things, right?
Yeah.
So if you know that. Don't raise your hand when someone says, is there anyone that wants to do this thing? And you're like, Ooh, ooh, ooh, me. I'm gonna fail. Right? Because that's not exactly getting you to where you wanna be in your life, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
And so there, there's these old models of sort of management where we're training staff and like, well, Jim's not very good at that thing. Well, let's have Jim do that for the next three years. Well, guess what? Jim's probably not gonna get any better and you're gonna lose him.
Yeah.
Right. Because you're asking him to do something that isn't in his wheelhouse, that isn't in his, his meaning and purpose.
Right. But if you find the way that Jim's meaning and purpose dovetails with other people's, you create an exceptional team that will deliver amazing solutions every single time, they will never be the one that you expected.
Hmm.
Right. But you have to trust your team to do it. And there there's whole notion of.
Within most design industries of this sort of the tortured creative, right? Yeah. So, oh, you have to get into burnout. You gotta, you just gotta keep pushing and keep pushing and keep pushing. You don't do your best work when you're exhausted, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
And there's this notion that you have to self-sacrifice everywhere for create creativity comes through you.
You are the vessel. And if you don't allow space in the vessel for creativity to flow, you don't have any left.
Hmm.
So I frequently tell junior staff when we're talking about sort of what they're looking at and they're talking about their goals and how they want to do life work, balance, right? We all find this balance, this sort of flow wherever we find it.
And it's different for everyone. But you have to make space for experiences. Experiences are the thing that got you into design in the first place. Hmm. You saw something, it moved you, right? It helped you, it moved you, it upset you. But it connected with you. A space or you know, if you're in creative for, uh, for something else and you're doing articles like you're doing the sofa, the sofa moved me 'cause it's so beautiful.
Right? Okay. You notice something in it that spoke to you, that connection is what drew you to it. Nobody's interested in saying things that are just pretty, and that's the end of the sentence. There's nothing there. It has to be beautiful and there's something else.
Yeah.
So the same thing that brought you into wanting to design is the thing that you want to embrace is that was your urge to connect deeply and to provide what you got from that experience to others.
Design is a hopeful act.
Hmm.
It isn't something that we do to make the world worse. Right? Yeah. Everyone is so
by nature.
Right. By nature, full of optimism. It is an optimistic pursuit.
Yeah.
So we look at the world and we may see challenges, but we're looking for solutions. You always find what you're looking for.
If you wake up in the morning and you say, I'm gonna find 10 problems today, guess what you're gonna find today?
Yeah.
Right. But if you look at the world and you say, I'm gonna find 10 moments of joy, and you are on the lookout, you will find them.
Hmm. I mean, this, this is really interesting. I mean, first this, this optimism is, is interesting in design.
'cause I, I think designers often get pigeonholed as being critics. Yeah, yeah. You know, but it's not really critic for the sake of being critical. Right. It's a pursuit.
It's a pursuit, you know, and the, the criticism is important to getting to the better solutions.
Right.
And it's a hard thing. Right. You have to fall in love with an idea enough to fight for it, but not so much that you can't let go.
Yeah.
You lean into it, you give it what it needs to grow, but you have to be able to bump off the ugly parts until it's the thing it needs to be.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, in some ways, anyone who's had a child and watched them grow understands this ability to love, but also to find challenges that can be corrected.
Yeah, yeah.
Right. And that's not something I understood until I had kids. Right. And so, as you know, I mean, I have, I have two beautiful boys. I am an over 50-year-old man who has a four and a 7-year-old.
You got this, Scott, your, your
energy
level it, I was gonna
say I got
it. You
I got it. You
are a fountain of
energy. Yeah. No, no. I, I, um, work hard at it, but it's, it's the, the thing is about that like, I mean, that, that actually does affect design and that's part of how my career has changed, right? Mm-hmm. And so I look back at my career and I started out in architecture and planning, and I worked on Olympics and college campuses doing student housing and recreation and student centers and athletics, and I was solving big scale problems.
Right. With a team that was exceptional and really enjoyed that. And I learned a lot from many of those people about how to think about long-term actions. Don't think about what you are doing for this building. Think about the people who are using the building after you are done. That's what you're designing for.
You're not designing for something that's gonna get built in. Everybody's gonna be like, yeah, that's cool. That doesn't matter.
Yeah.
What matters is the users who are using it initially and then how the building can adjust for them later. Right. And if you think of your act as something that has long-term implications, you're more careful with your decisions.
So even if I'm doing a corporate workplace and they're gonna sign a seven year lease, that's gonna be a seven year challenge for anything that I do that I didn't think through well enough.
Wow.
So I'm penalizing those people because I didn't take the time to do it. Right. That's not fair.
You know what, it's one of those things that doesn't really show up a lot in the client design brief.
Like, that's not part of the brief, you know, like take care, you know, like make sure I'm good in seven years.
Yeah,
yeah.
Um, but it's, it's what you should do responsibly, I suppose, right? Yeah.
And even if you're doing that seven year design brief, right? You are creating environments that will affect behaviors, and if those behaviors improve the outcomes for your client, that's your long-term thinking.
Hmm.
Right? So, if your client says, we have a challenge with collaboration, you know, we don't have people collaborating enough, you need to define what kind of collaboration they're doing. Right? Is a cooperative collaboration, iterative collaboration, bombastic collaboration, competitive collaboration, right?
These different types of collaboration require different spaces to work.
Yeah.
And so when you know what kind of collaboration they're doing and what kind they want to be doing, if the spaces allow it and support it, they can shift their company culture to be that. But that goes beyond your seven year lease because if you've helped them adjust the culture to be what it's gonna be most successful for them in the space that you designed, that is a basis of design for the next project.
Yeah.
So that they can keep that culture going. So even though the thing that you did may die in seven years, what it is made of will live on if it's done right.
Yeah.
So, and I've had this conversation with a number of corporate interiors designers who are like, well, you know, it won't matter 'cause they're moving out.
It does matter.
Yeah.
These are hugely impactful decisions that you are making
it. And it's, you know, when 20 years ago, to me, seven years would've felt like an eternity. And you know, it feels now like that's just nothing.
Yeah.
I mean, the pandemic was almost seven years ago. Yeah. That's kind of crazy to face.
That
is crazy.
Yeah,
that was, and it was a major world changing thing. And that, and that's so funny. One of the things that we were also gonna talk about is mentorship. And I think one of the single most impactful, and not in a positive way, not necessarily negative, but impactful in terms of the shift that it created, was the way that leaving the office entirely affected how we collaborate in a creative pursuit in architecture or interiors.
And it's understanding, you know, as, as we look at that, that separation that pulled us apart did a few things. So we learned how to communicate more effectively when we are asynchronous or when we are in separate places. That's good. But what it took away was the ability to understand why I am making the decisions I'm making in a side-by-side collaboration while sketching.
'cause that couldn't really happen. There were no tools that allowed you to co-create effectively and seamlessly. Yeah. And I looked, 'cause I wanted to find this. So the thing is that when you go to school, they teach you a new way of seeing the world. And they teach you strategies to utilize your skills that are inherent and your talent that's inherent and apply it towards the creation of environments.
If you're talking about architecture and interiors, right. But they don't teach you anything about how to take that and turn it into something that can be built. Right. And it can't really explain how you're gonna take that and affect people's lives.
Yeah.
You have to live it. You have a responsibility as a leader in these, in these organizations to lead in a way that your, your end goal should actually be obsolescence.
My job is done when nobody needs me.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
But that's not what many of our design leaders look at. They look at it and they say, my success is based on all of these markers that I want to provide for myself, and I'm measuring against these things, and frequently will hold back some information so that they stay relevant.
Yeah,
that's a problem. Because it is. You're then losing that information. If you never share it, then it's gone. Right?
Yeah.
And that's, that's a problem. And looking at the way that it's playing out, like post pandemic, where most people are used to a hybrid setting now, which has its great strengths, but the, the design process itself, if you sit with me for 20 minutes.
We work on something together, I can explain to you why this solution that you're looking at may be better served by considering these things. Right. You're getting the benefit of every one of my mistakes. And there are many, right?
Yeah.
But so the thing is you have to try. Yeah. Try and fail. Try and fail.
But the sitting with, I think is the
Sitting with is hugely important.
It is. I, I actually, I mean, it's funny, I had, I had a conversation with our, our head of a and d, Anita McClellan
Yeah.
Recently. And she was describing somebody that she had a teams call with and she was like, I can't stand this guy.
Yeah.
And then ended up meeting him
Yeah.
For this presentation. And was like, this guy's amazing. Right. We should, yeah. Yeah. You know, like, we should hire this guy. Yeah. This is kind of funny.
Yeah.
And uh, how quickly that changed. But it was like, you know, I can imagine. This conversation wouldn't have near the enthusiasm.
Yeah. Or connection. Yeah. If we were remote,
right? No, this wouldn't, this wouldn't work nearly as well. Remote. So you also set the stage. Now think about what you bring every room that you walk into, the first thing you should know is you belong.
I like that.
If you don't feel like you belong in the room, leave the room.
'cause it's not gonna go in the way that will support you. It won't go in the way that will make whatever the room you're walking into, it won't be the result that is the best result for that.
So I mean, like, we should talk about the responsibility for that feeling. Yeah. Because you know, the people in the room are responsible for that.
Yep. Yeah.
But coming in the room Right. You have a, a sense of responsibility too. Yeah. You almost have to know sometimes that, um, even if I don't feel that way.
Yeah.
You know, you have to figure out what the intentions are.
Yeah.
You know, like.
And I, I think there's a, there's a difference between belonging and welcome.
I have entered many rooms where I'm not welcome, but I still belong.
Hmm. Like in what way?
I bring the belong. You bring the welcome. Right. So I am frequently called upon to be the deliverer of bad news.
Oh boy.
And that's fine. I, I accept this. And part of it is, goes back to the discussion about articulation.
Right. So I can tell you something true and something that is upsetting without being mean or rude about it.
Yeah.
Right. And I can hold my line of, even though I'm delivering a message that you don't like, you have no right to attack me over the message.
Right.
Right. It is what it is. So don't get so embedded in it that any, and you can't do this with your design work either.
You can't be like, here's the solution, and someone's like, it's crap. I'm crying. I mean, right. It might actually be crap, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
For what they need anyway. So, you know, you, you have to, you have to be able to find a moment before you go into these rooms where you know that you are coming in to provide value.
What I'm saying is, if you, if you are not going to provide value in that room, why, why are you going in that room?
Maybe you don't belong.
Right? Maybe you should find another.
Uh,
but I, so in that way, like as we have that conversation, I, I frequently, I present to boards a lot, right? And so boards are usually elected officials.
And the elected officials, by and large ran on some campaign of, this is what's going well, but here's why you should choose me over the other guy. And so, almost by default, the politics of it, you're supposed to say that everybody's doing everything terrible, but you're gonna fix it, right?
Yeah.
Usually not the full picture.
And we can't, you know, we can get into that at some point, but basically somebody on the board is seen as the one who is doing the thing that the other person ran against. So you have people on the board who are all looking at their constituents who voted for them. So it's never a situation that I've seen in my long career in presenting to boards of various kinds that everybody has the same opinion.
Almost by default, there are people there who have opposite opinions because they got onto that because they were placed there by people who are represented representing different factions of a community. And I use community loosely because uh, uh, you know, a corporation is a community.
Yeah.
Right. Your town is a community, right?
Your country is a community and we have these things that we all accept and things that, that are part and parcel of who we are. And then there's this whole host of things around it that we disagree about. Right? And that's just the nature of it. And so when you're presenting to a group of people who hold some things to be self-evident, but hold many other things to be talking points and friction points, you are invariably going to be talking against somebody's point of view.
Yeah.
So I am not welcome by several of the people in the room every time I walk into a board meeting. But I belong there because I'm the one with the information that we're about to discuss.
Yeah, yeah.
Right. It's not easy to come to that sense of belonging and if you, you know, some people are born with it and good for you.
Right. I was not that person, so, and it was, it was hard one, but understanding, again, sort of mindset when you come in, anytime I'm asked to come into a room as an architect or a designer, it is a warm room. It's not a cold call. They know I'm coming,
right?
Right. They've asked me to be there so I don't have to justify that I can be here.
That's already established. You wind up putting yourself on the back foot for any conversation that follows if you try to justify your presence to begin the conversation, and I see designers do this all the time.
I'll give an example.
They'll come into the room and be like, you know, when I say, you know, we're gonna do the quick introductions, and they'll be like, my name's Kelly and I graduated in this year and I've been working really hard.
I'm like, okay, Kelly, let's start over. You have every right to be here.
Yeah. Yeah.
None of them thought that you didn't have a right to be here until you started to justify that you had a right to be here. Huh. So you've just told them that, I don't think I belong now. They don't think you belong.
Yeah.
Your hard, your job just got much, much harder because you framed it in a way that made it hard for them to believe you.
Yeah.
Right. Yeah. And I hear a lot of, particularly the, the young women that I work with, interior designers, when they're about to share an idea, say the word just, it fills me with a small packet of rage when they say, because what's happening is like, well, I was just thinking, no, Nope. Stop, stop. Stop. Yeah.
You were thinking that's enough.
Yeah. Yeah.
When you say, I was just thinking you've placed yourself below everyone there. That's not where you belong.
Yeah. Yeah.
And it bothers me because I see these incredibly powerful and capable and talented, particularly women in the industry who aren't getting as far ahead as they should because they are placing themselves a half step back because of the way that they're taught the language.
As young girls,
man
it, it's a problem.
Yeah. Yeah, it is. Wow. So you're, I mean, what, what got you into this place of mentorship? Like, I mean, what have you just been. Did you just, do you care about other people's success? You're hardwired for that, and then that in turn
Yeah.
Has kind of made you this way?
I think part of it, I mean, I do, I, I grew up in a larger family, um, and so I was sort of always the little peacekeeper.
Are we talking like 10 kids or like six?
No, like my individual family is only two, but I have a broad extended family. Okay. So lots and lots of cousins and like, you know, a Christmas party would be including, you know, relatives and their plus ones of varying, you know, relationships. You know, we're talking like 60 to a hundred person parties.
Wow. Yeah.
For Christmas, um, I, once, I once brought a friend to a Christmas party, um, and we were driving down the street once, once, once. Never again. Never again. So we're driving down the street and I, I point and I'm like, well, that's the house we're going to over there. And, and he was like, oh, okay. Um, and he is from Ohio, and his family was like, that was it, it was just his mom and dad.
Sisters and him. Yeah. Like there was no extended family. And so I was like, and we parked, we had to park like a block away. Um, and he was like, wow, somebody's having a really big party. And I was like, this moment of realization, I was like, oh my God, you don't realize that's the party that you're going to.
And I was like, okay, so listen, um, it's gonna be really loud. And this was outside of Boston, right? So everybody had a really thick Boston accent, so he couldn't understand anyone. Anyway, so, and we come down the hill and it's louder and louder. So my realization that he had no idea that that's actually the reason there were all those cars came about three houses away when he was like, like, yeah, we're going to that house, open the front door.
And my, my aunt opens the door and she's just this huge personality, opens the door and she goes, oh my God, they're here really loud. Like. And he looks up, she grabs his arm, pulls him into the house. I don't see him for 45 minutes.
Oh dang.
Because we walk in and, you know, we're just sort of all moving around the So to be able to negotiate that right?
Yeah.
You have to be able to have a sort of a spirit of kindness that's within you.
Yeah.
Right. To navigate it and be in it and engage with it. And I was always one to engage. Right. I have relatives who do not engage. Right. And so they will like walk in, they'd be like, hi guys. And then disappear into one of the quiet corners.
Um, and I was never a quiet corner kid. Right. So,
surprise.
Yeah. So going into that, like I, I've always had this notion of wanting to connect.
Okay.
Right. And I am, I am an optimist. I'm hopeful at heart. And if something can be better, it should be, we don't need to suffer. Right.
Yeah, I agree.
There's some people that love their suffering.
Yeah. Don't take that away from
me. No, right. Exactly. I, I, it's, I literally can't understand loving suffering so much to not let go of at least some of it. Yeah. Right. But in, in looking at it, so I think that serves this foundation knowing that there's this large, boisterous, gregarious, you know, very engaged group of people that I saw what kindness, I also saw what cruelty looked like.
Right. But sure. But I saw kindness and I gravitated to that. I saw people who cared enough to make sure that you were comfortable and that you had the best experience, regardless of who you. Right. And so like in terms of mentors, there was an un there were a number of family mentors, I would say for sure.
Um, one thing that I, I hadn't really thought about before coming today, but is as we're having this conversation stands out is my brother had his high school graduation party. His now wife was his girlfriend at the time, and she thought it would be funny to get him a singing telegram type of a thing for his birthday.
I wonder if they still do those.
I'm sure, I'm sure. Is one coming right now? That would
be Cue the singing. Yeah,
cue the singing Telegram. So, um, so Karen had arranged for this singing, you know, congratulatory, uh, telegram to come and she chose like, there's a roster of like, what, what do you want this person to be?
You know, like one dressed as a cat or whatever. And she was like, oh, like hobo slash homeless person. So a straight up homeless looking person. No caricature involved. Walks into my family's backyard, who is going to deliver the song?
Oh no.
But like, this is the whole family. And this woman walks in and several people were like, oh my God, homeless person just came to the party.
What do we do?
She
right.
She reaches into her pocket to pull out her script, right? And they're like,
no. So, but what struck me, and so in terms of that mentorship and a statement about extreme kindness, so my dad was like, in the back corner of the yard, he walks over, makes a plate of food and asks her to sit with my family.
Sorry. Obviously you didn't expect that. Um, so like that degree of kindness.
Yeah.
Like this was in his mind an actual homeless person.
Right.
And he said, no one leaves this house hungry.
So that takes courage and conviction, right? There's 60 people here and you stand up and say, no, none of you, none of you will treat this person badly. And
you show through your actions what is right. The power in that is immense and obviously has had an effect because I'm like, I'm feeling that right now.
It's who you. It's deep in your soul of who you are that moment.
And there are these, these watershed moments that we have in our lives where we see the difference between right and wrong in very stark, very clear divisions.
And if you're paying attention. You will hold onto those and understand that these are the things that will help you as you move forward in your life. Right. This profound act of kindness. Now, are there bigger acts of kindness? Yeah. My dad was not Mother Teresa. Right. But in that moment, there was no question that he did the right thing.
Now then the person randomly started singing and he was like, what the hell is going on here? So that was a whole thing. Um, but yeah, I mean, so you talk about the, the mentorship and so like seeing that and understanding that act of no one leaves this house hungry. I don't care who you are. Right. And the display of kindness for someone who in that setting would obviously have had a harder time in their life than you did.
Yeah.
It was your job to help them. Right. And I see that. Infiltrate many, many aspects of, of who I am and what I do and the decisions I make. Um, and I share, not that story, uh, necessarily, but I share smaller stories like that with staff members to talk about really what decisions are we making Yeah. In these spaces when we're designing.
I mean, that's, that's how you build legacy. Yeah. It's not by pulling magic rabbits out of a hat. Right.
No.
That,
yeah. It's understanding. So, you know, the, the critical thing. And so I, I look back and, you know, I've, I've had the good fortune in my life to be given a lot of opportunities. Right. But I had the good sense to say yes.
And there's a big difference. People get opportunities all the time, and frequently we say no. And you don't get very far with no. Anytime an opportunity that comes up that I think I can challenge myself or I can make a difference, or I can do well, or I can do good as, again, two different things. I say yes, the worst thing that can happen is I fail and have an experience that I can share with you.
Right.
Yeah.
Very few things that happen in architecture and design in terms of opportunities you're gonna get as a design, as a designer, and with any injuries. Right. True. It's usually like, well that didn't work. Guess off you draw it again. Right?
Yeah.
We don't save lives. Right. We look out for life safety, very different than we don't say lives every day.
Right. And so the, the amount of urgency that many of, particularly like younger designers, they're like, ah, all wrapped up. I was like, oh honey, if they choose that base or this base, nobody's gonna die.
Yeah.
Like, just, it's okay. It's okay. We'll find the right solution. Let's just dig a breath. Um, you know, and these.
These interactions as we're talking about mentorship, I, you know, I find a lot of design leaders forget about the fact that you are teaching some of the softer skills of design. That's what you're doing in the mentorship, right?
Yeah.
You are not teaching, you know, they know how to draw and they're learning more about how to use the software.
And if you're mentoring that, do it with kindness, right? And if you're really, if you're mentoring, design, and I'll, I'll speak more about the realm that I'm in 'cause it's someone that I don't know about is as creators of design, um, sort of refiners of design more than anything. You know, if you're working with people to talk about that, there's a lot of conversation that should be had about the problem that we're trying to solve.
But you should also be coaching them through, with your actions, with your intentions, and with how you frame solutions, this understanding of legacy. The decisions you make now affect these people and their lives long term. So understand what you're doing with that. Yeah. Um, it affects self-worth. I have to create an environment where you are free to fail.
Hmm.
If you don't push beyond, then you'll just get the same thing everybody else gave. Right.
Yeah.
So another, another dadism. Um, so when we were growing up, frequently when we came home, my dad would ask, not like, what did you do at school today? Or What did you learn? My dad would ask, what did you fail at today?
Oh, that's good.
Because if you failed, you tried.
Yeah. And it normalizes
Right.
Failure instead, you know, it, it, it,
yeah.
Makes it okay.
It makes it okay. It makes it part of the process.
Yeah.
Instead of the enemy.
That's good. I kind of wanna,
yeah. My,
I kind of wanna this one for home. Yeah. Thank you.
Yeah. But I mean, it's
like that.
It's true though, because, you know, we, we look at things and we say, you know. We self limit if we're afraid of failure.
Yeah.
Right. So a failure is part of the process. There's less, less self-limiting, because if failure is an option and that's okay, then let's get closer to it.
Hmm.
You will learn more between safe and failure then you will between safe and different safe.
Right.
Yeah, no, that's true.
Right? I mean that, that breadth of learning is what moves the industry forward.
Yeah. Just don't hurt anyone.
Right.
That's the only rule.
Right, exactly. Exactly. Do no harm. Right. And, and so I find that, you know, as, as we look at the generational transfer in the workplace, it's also interesting because it's, I try very hard within the studio to help everybody understand that the entire studio is a waterfall of learning, right?
Yeah.
But this waterfall flows in both directions. If you are someone who will sit in the room and say, I know everything. You don't, and you're probably really difficult to work with.
Yeah.
Right. But if you come into the studio and say, okay, everyone in this room is expert at something more than someone else in the room, it is your obligation to this organization to share that and help all of us have a better understanding or be better at it.
So this is the second time you've kind of referenced this idea of a team
mm-hmm.
That's full of different people. I wrote it down the first time where it's like there's an intentional kind of curation of your team.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Um, I, I'm, we're, we're exploring this idea.
Yeah.
And I'd love to kind of get into that a little deeper too, like, is there.
Are there qualities that you're looking for? Are there, are there, like, what are the differences other than perspective?
Yeah.
Is there something else you're looking for that's different about a person when you're building a team?
Yeah. And I, I'm gonna start with perspective and come to it. Right.
Okay.
So that, that perspective is critically important.
And I've used this analogy when, when talking to clients. So I will place a Coke can in the middle of the table and I will tell everyone, this is our problem. So the designers are sitting on this side of the table. We can tell you in exquisite detail what's happening on this side of the can. I can't see your side of the can.
You're the only one that can tell us that. So if you don't share what's happening over there, we only have half of a solution.
That's good.
Right. But it's the true story.
Giving away all your secrets.
No, my secrets are free. Right. If
that's good.
Right. I mean, the thing is like, at the end of the day, and I, and I meant this when I said this earlier, like my job, I know that I my job, but I'm obsolete.
Yeah.
When I have nothing to say that anyone's interested in because they've already heard it or they're doing it in their lives.
That's perfect.
Yeah. That's perfect.
Yeah.
Put me on a beach. Right?
Yeah.
So in that case, like with the, with that perspective, I've used this as a way to also explain diversity and why it's important.
Hmm.
And, and not in sort of a DEI like objective. Right. Just saying diversity as a thing that existed as a concept before we talked about DEI.
Sure.
Right. Um, and looking at that and saying, okay, that diversity of viewpoint is your collection of experiences until the moment we meet Your experiences profoundly impact how we solve a problem together.
And if I have everyone who has the same experience as me, we get one mediocre solution, which probably only solves half the problem.
Yeah.
But the minute you bring others in that understand more than you do or differently than you do, you're providing more profound answers to that challenge. And that will make that answer better than the one that was done just a little bit earlier because it doesn't have the benefit of the experience that we've had even since then.
So even that same team brings different experiences and different diversity of viewpoint to new solutions each time.
Yeah.
So when you're building a team, I think it's very important to find people, you know, like if I was gonna, if I was gonna like, make a roster of the best team for me, I would look at where I am less successful.
That would be my first hire. Somebody who does that thing really well.
Hmm.
Right.
What is that?
So I would say, so I'm, I'm, I'm okay with a schedule. And a budget.
You're okay.
You can do it.
Yeah.
It doesn't make my heart sing.
Sure.
Right?
Sure.
Right. And you, and you want to, you wanna put people in a place where their heart can sing 'cause you do your best work.
Right? Well, truth be told, so in, in all seriousness, if I found somebody who's good at this thing, let's say it's picking finishes, right?
Yeah.
Color and finishes. So if I have an interior designer who is like a master at colors and finishes, I have a conversation with him or her and I say, okay, we're, we want you to do this because you're faster than everybody else.
It's a better solution, right?
Yeah.
You get to hear the truth that you did a great job and all of these things help keep you happy. What else do you want to do? 'cause I can't just have you do this all the time 'cause then you'll get bored. So what do you want us to supplement with? And also you're doing that on this project right now.
And then we look at what's next to fold. The other thing in. Right,
right.
So in that brief conversation, I've acknowledged your strengths. I've thanked you for them. I've let you know that we value them, and I've asked you what you want for your personal growth. So that sends messages beyond, I need you to pick some colors and finishes.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And in that, that's the same approach to take with everyone to understand what they're bringing to the team. We love to meet or exceed expectations, but if we don't know them, we're lost. So if it's very clear communication about this is what I want you to do on this, and I want you to knock it outta the park, right?
And let's talk about it, blah, blah, blah. So I would immediately, if it were me building my team, I would immediately find somebody who does that in an instant. And it's stunning every time. Right. So as a leader, if there's somebody doing something and when they do it, you're a little bit jealous of it, hire them.
That's actually, that's pretty good. Yeah.
Right?
Yeah,
exactly. Because what you're looking to build is not you. You're looking to build the group that will do the best job.
Right.
Right. People that are coming to me who have skill sets similar to mine, right. Who want to be mentored, love it, happy to do it.
But I can't have everyone be that.
Right?
Because if they can do all the things that I can do, then why are they here If I'm still here?
Yes. Right.
Yeah.
So, and I mean, it's one thing if you're creating your, like protege, which is also a strange thing because you, you don't, have you ever, have you ever
done that?
No.
I mean, I've had people that I've mentored who have had like,
we only want one of you anyway.
Right, exactly. It would be too much if there was more than one. Let's be honest. I
didn't
say no, I, you know, it's. I don't want to recreate me.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
I want to help you create the best version of you.
You can.
Yeah.
But you have to, I mean, it's the oracle at Delphi, right? You need to know thyself.
Yeah.
Know where you're strong and where you're not. It's okay if you don't, but let's find that out together.
And to your point, you made earlier, um, you talked about leaning into your strength
mm-hmm.
Rather than the old school method of like Well, you know, I, I heard it, I heard it explained once, basically if you're a five at something
Yeah.
And you're an eight at something.
Yeah.
You could work really hard to make your five a seven.
Right.
Or you can make really hard to make your eight a 10.
Exactly.
No one cares about a seven.
Right.
People pay big bucks for a 10.
Exactly.
So go make yourself a 10.
Exactly. Go make yourself a 10. That's exactly right.
And so you kinda see it as your responsibility almost in a way to help others discover their path to a 10.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, and you, and, and part of it, I, I, I've also, I've mentioned sort of meaning and purpose generally a couple of times. I think that's part of the, like as I look at my journey through my career, you know, early years, obviously I was, I was building understanding and, and building skillsets and getting great mentorship from, from a number of great designers who, you know, there were tactical sort of information that they gave me to understand and technical information, how to approach it, how to build it.
Right. And these things were fantastic. You couldn't find 'em any other way than working with somebody closely.
Yeah.
But it was the soft skills, softer skills side of it that I learned. So there was a, Jonathan Austin, um, was the architect's name who I worked with at Sasaki Associates, British guy. It, it helped that he had a British accent because he could deliver bad news and everybody was happy to hear because they just wanted to hear him speak.
That's
funny.
Yeah. But he would, he said to me one day, we, we were sitting there and I was working on something and um, and he always had a little catchphrase for anything. Um, but the thing that, one of the ones, one of the statements that he made that stuck with me was, you know, we were looking at a multi-building solution for a client.
And as a, you know, five year architect, he put me in charge of designing one of the buildings. It was a small outbuilding essentially. And part of me was like, W wa well I guess I'm gonna be doing the tiny one.
Yeah.
And he pulled me aside. I, I didn't, you know, I don't think I outwardly made a face or anything.
He pulled me aside and he said, I, he said, I wanna talk with you about your assignment. I said, okay. So we sit down and he said, first I think there's greatness in you. I think, I think you can find it, but you're gonna have to work at it. And I said, that's fine. I'm not afraid to work. And I said, and second, understand, there's as much architecture in this outbuilding as there is in the main building, but yours needs to be more intentional.
'cause there's only so many mistakes you can make before they're obvious. And so this notion that. It was as important. And actually you had to be more careful 'cause you couldn't hide the mistakes anywhere.
Yeah.
Stuck with me.
Yeah.
And so this is a, a conversation that I've had regularly with, particularly when I was, you know, leading a corporate interiors staff who would have these master service agreements, assignments where you're implementing standards, where the staff members would be, oh, I guess I'm doing another, like blah, blah, blah.
Yeah.
Because it's not as creatively fulfilling. And they'd be like, oh, don't mistake this.
Yeah.
As something other than what it is. This is a great opportunity for you to hone some skills, but you have to try and you have to be intentional. Yes. All of those finishes are selected, all the furniture pieces are selected, you know what you're putting in the walls.
So that alleviates you to get a higher level of thinking of how to improve this space.
Yeah.
You don't have to think about all those things.
Yeah.
Those are worked out. How can you make this one when they walk into it,
it's like, great constraints. Yeah. Build great designs.
Exactly.
Yeah.
How can you use these kit of parts, use this kit of parts to make a profoundly good space?
Oh, I love that.
Right.
That edge on that.
Yeah.
You know, it's kind of, it's cool that you remembered a conversation so vividly.
Yeah.
And you know, do you ever think like, here you are, you're, you're in a position, people are gonna remember the conversations you've had with them. And so that's a, that's a, that's a big bag to carry on your back.
Well, I, I, we all carry that. Right?
That's, you know what, you're right. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Who, you don't have to be a coach. Right. Or a memento, you know, like, you know, you could probably smile at someone and say, you know,
yeah.
Great outfit today. Right. And it would Exactly. It would be something they'd remember.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, it's, there's. The trajectory that somebody takes from your interaction is partially within your control. Right. So at the, at the Leader's breakfast last week, two weeks ago, one of the things that Shola Richards said that I thought was later was quoting his mom and saying, Shola, there are two kinds of people in this world, the people that make you feel good when they walk in the room, and the people that make you feel good when they walk out.
That's good.
Which I thought was amazing.
Yeah.
And you know, and so it, in terms of that, I think leads to that statement where like, you change people's trajectory. You wanna be the person that makes everyone feel good when they walk in.
Yeah.
Right. But you can control that.
Yeah.
So. In terms of people, like, I've had people repeat conversations to me that we've had years later, but I also, I mean, I'm, I'm interested in engaging with and committing to and building, right?
So I have a staff of people, many of whom I've worked with for years at different locations. So it's not unusual that I would hear Sam say, oh, this one time when you said X, Y, Z, right? Yeah, yeah. That, that had an effect. Um, which isn't like, the goal is never, is not really to. To have that effect. I think that's a little, I mean, I'm,
yeah.
I, it's just, that's just, it happens. Yeah. But that's not the goal,
right?
Yeah.
So, you know, it's be mindful of what you bring to a room.
Yeah.
Be mindful of the words you say, be mindful of the way that you say them. You have no idea what anyone else is caring when they walk into a room.
Yeah. I had, I had a friend recently tell me about, um, we were talking about some youth coaches
Yeah.
And, um, how important it is, like when there's a, a coach, especially maybe one that's younger
mm-hmm.
That's coaching a kid's sports team.
Yeah.
Um, that's not apparent. Right. And he said when, when you have a paid coach for a team. It is basically a handshake agreement that we've decided to raise these kids together.
Yeah.
And I was like, Ooh. That's, that's true. That's true. Uh, because, you know, the things that come out of their mouth
mm-hmm.
Are extremely impactful. Yeah. So, you know, whether it's the, or even the things they do, just like what your, your dad did in that moment. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of interesting the things you carry with you.
Yeah.
There's a paper on your lap.
Yeah.
And it's got a bunch of notes and I wanna make sure we don't miss any of the really good things on there.
Yeah. I, this, I had put them together just because I was, I've been thinking about this, but honestly, this conversation is more about being in this moment.
It is.
I just, and
where
goes, you know, if there's gold in there, I just, I don't wanna leave it out.
I, I don't know. There's much gold in here. There's a lot of, there's a lot of thoughts that I've had over the years just about, you know, how to make sure that, and it's, it's along this line, like how to, how to bring joy.
How to bring meaning and purpose and how to bring that mentorship to any workplace I've been in.
What about joy? Like, are there, like, if you were to break it down into strategies?
Yeah, yeah.
Does Joy have a strategy If you want joy in your workplace?
Absolutely.
How, how do you know? Like where do you start?
You know, what, what are the, yeah, what are the ways that you look at it?
So, joy is a deep, sustainable approach, right? Happiness is fleeting. Happiness is for an event. Joy is for a relationship.
Hmm.
And that's your relationship with a space, your relationship with a person, with a community, right? And so joy is, is deep, and it has to have purpose.
And it's built on these meaningful relationships, again, meaningful relationships with people, with environments. Like if you have, we generally have a more meaningful relationship with wood as a finish than we do as something slick and glossy.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
We recognize the life that one existed once existed in that wood.
Totally.
Right. We honor that. That doesn't mean everything has to be wood, but like it's something where there's more of a draw for
us.
Yeah.
Right. And that's a meaningful relationship, right? So knowing that the path to joy involves something that is long term, involves something that is based on purpose, and that meaning you can create opportunities to deepen those, I cannot make my workplace more joyful.
I can make sure there's opportunities for the team to come together and make it more joyful for themselves.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
So, and, and joy, and for me, joy and mentorship are very closely linked. So I have the opportunity to show you how to create a more joyful life if I demonstrate that.
Yeah, yeah.
Right. So I have to, as a leader, I have to bring that to the office. Right. It is not appropriate. Even if I'm feeling the pressure of all of the demands on my time and yada yada, it is not appropriate for me to come in and complain to the people that I work with about it.
Yeah. What's the, what's the, the old phrase, if mommy ain't happy, ain't nobody
happy.
Right? Exactly. Exactly
right.
So like, I, you need to be mindful of the fact that you have this impact that we've been talking about. So if I bring, and that doesn't mean you have to be, you know, toxic positivity. Right? You don't have to be happy all the time. But you shouldn't break down and destroy the things around you, right?
So if I come into a room and I know that I'm gonna have a difficult meeting, I still wanna be able to bring joy to it. So it's usually a level set and say, okay, what good can come of this?
Yeah,
right. Joy in design, it can be part of the process. So I frequently talk about with the S, like when we're doing a design, looking at a design challenge together, when we get stuck, one of the things I frequently ask is, what's funny about it?
Huh?
Stop what you're doing right now. Make a funny solution. So humor is a juxtaposition of two things that don't necessarily belong or that you didn't see put together that way before.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
So asking yourself how to make this problem funny, makes you look at it from a different perspective.
That's really good.
Suddenly. You have a whole host of options that you didn't have before.
Right. Right.
And it's fun. As it turns out, when you're stressed out, your solutions are not nearly as good as when you're not.
Yeah. They probably, it's like holding up a mirror,
uhhuh,
you know, they probably take on the mood or the mode in which you're working.
Yeah. And, and, and Cheryl Durst had given a, one of the talks that she gave at, at one of the presentations she was mentioning that design was a core survival skill,
huh?
Right. And saying that it's basically, it lives in your cerebral cortex in the same place as other survival instincts. It's what drives our ability to solve problems.
So if the herd is going in this direction, we're all going in this direction. And you see a cliff and you see a way to not go over the cliff. If you chose to knock over the cliff, you have used your design mind.
Yeah. You're exercising those same neural pathways. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay.
And I think humor is sort of in the same neighborhood.
Yeah. In the
cortex.
Right. I love that.
So
you're speaking my language.
So these things, I think they're part and parcel of who we are and they are actually survival instincts.
Yeah.
I believe. Right.
I love that.
And if you don't use them, you're missing out.
Yeah.
Right. So if we're working together, there should be some opportunity to, to bring in some joy to that, some humor to that.
Right. And I guarantee you, if we go through that process and there's been a moment of deep understanding, you're looking for the purpose of this, you found something funny, right. That there's a solution there that will itself. Give you that feeling that it's better and more meaningful than one that would've happened without it.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
So then you start to tap into what's next with it. And so, and you should play, the reason that design uses iteration is because that's play. It's because you're trying to find different ways of looking at it and solve it. And break it and fix it. Yeah.
Yeah.
Right. So one of the things that I think the, the artifice of the computer interface versus when we were drawing with PEN mostly is that there's still that iterative process, but it's all happening in the ether because it's not collected.
Whereas stacks of Trace, I can go back and find a partial solution.
Yeah.
I can't find that readily now. So we're missing the ability to call back easily to something before. And memory is a fickle thing because if you did that sketch. And then two days later, you're still thinking about the same problem.
You're like, oh, that sketch solved this problem. You go back and find it. Huh? That's not at all what I remembered. Right?
Yeah.
But you thought it solved something in a way, and when you look at it, it's either gonna trigger that feeling and help you get to what you thought the solution was.
Yeah.
Or it may give you a different pathway.
That's a useful solution. We don't have that record as much now through the computer. And so frequently where it gets hard for mentors and for design leaders is I typically now have designers bringing me their solutions and want me to review their solution. So again, Jonathan Austin, when we were, when I first started working with him, he was like, you know, I will not mock a British accent.
I apologize to anyone who has an accent that I'm not going to destroy by trying to recreate. But Jonathan would say in his crisp British accent, right? So, I want you to work on this until you get stuck. Call me when you're stuck. If you think you're done, you're wrong.
So basically,
yeah,
he will get that call.
Yeah.
You need to work until you get stuck.
Right? Exactly.
That's, that's clever.
Right? And he was like, and I expect that you'll get stuck at least three times before we get to a solution that works.
I, uh,
and then sent me off on my way.
That's really go create
things.
I, I heard a quote, which is, uh, design is easy.
You stare at a computer screen until little drops of blood form on your forehead. Right. You know? Yeah. It's like,
yeah. Yeah.
I mean it's, you know, that's like part of it, part of the journey is
Right.
Getting stuck
well and getting stuck. But the thing is again, it's, there's, there doesn't have to be a men's self-sacrifice in it.
Right. There's no self-flagellation involved, like
Right.
Get to a point where you're stuck and then find someone who can help.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's what your mentor's there for.
Yeah. Maybe it's easier if you just figure out how to get stuck quicker.
Right. I guarantee, I mean, fail early, fail often. Right?
Yeah.
So, and this is an approach that I still try to take with, with my staff is like, okay, I want to give you the balance of autonomy. Right. But also mentorship, both can't exist. I can't mentor you properly if you don't do anything yourself.
Well, you are, you are a master mentor.
I try.
You are a master articulator,
right?
I mean, and thank you. I, I do sincerely try because at the end of the day. You know, we need to be able to articulate the challenge and the expectations if you want outcomes that are gonna be successful outcomes.
Um, this, this was a fantastic conversation, Scott.
I know. I really enjoyed it.
Yes. Uh, you brought all the things I hope you'd bring.
Excellent.
Is there, is there a question that you wish I would've asked you that I've left off here? Or a story you wanted to tell that you didn't get the chance to?
A story that I wanted to tell? I have a lot of stories. I don't have any specifically that I was like, Ooh, I can't wait to tell, to tell that one.
No, I mean, I think, you know, instead of providing a story of, of what has happened right. I'd rather future cast a story that I would like to tell. Ooh,
all right. I like this.
Right. So if we were to meet again in 10 years where because of the aforementioned child at 50, I will still be 10 years away from retirement.
Um, if in 10 years, which is at my midpoint to my horizon, we were to meet again. I would like for the story I tell, to be one of bringing an a community together and showing the best of themselves in ways that were unexpected.
Hmm.
Right. A story where you couldn't possibly think that my ragtag band of designers could have done this incredibly beautiful thing that everyone loves and embraces.
Right. Or that's
really cool.
Any other broad of, you know, any other sort of community. And I think that, that, that's, that's always my goal, right? I wanna elevate, I wanna improve and I wanna impact. And if our work isn't doing that, then we're not meeting the brief.
I love that Scott, you are a wonderful coach and, and I know you've helped a lot of people.
Thank
you today.
Excellent. I appreciate that.
Thank you for coming on.
Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate. Thank you.
Thanks for joining me here on Love What You Do.